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Old 02-16-2018, 05:54 PM   #401
Icelander
 
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Default Re: [Modern Firepower] Technothriller gear for secret DHS team in 2017

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Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
If I needed reliable body armor, and wasn't really expecting the fragmentation threat to be great, I'd just get a plate carrier and plates online.

Well, actually I already have both, of course, but as an answer to your question...
Can you conceal a plate carrier?

At least for the PCs, they have Holdout at skill -14 to -20 and are meant to outwardly appear like tourists and the private security for a wealthy tourist in an area known to be violent. They might like rifle proofed armour, but they don't have the option, as they either receive the same model as they are issued at work (federal agents Onyx Rain seems to want to survive) or an inexpensive, basic concealable vest (people Onyx Rain likes little enough to make fairly inexpensive armour plausible).

On the other hand, the Second Chance Monarch Summit and the IIIA vest marked 'Savvy Female' in the surplus police vest section of your link are attractively priced and surely 'good enough' for a couple of people that nobody on Joint Task Force Onyx Rain seem to want to equip anyway, a PC and his NPC 'dependent'.*

*Not really a formal Disadvantage on the character sheet, but due to triggering other Disadvantages and an in-play decision to promise her aid and protection, functions as such, even if she doesn't seem all that grateful and might sometimes seem like more of an 'Enemy'.
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:06 AM   #402
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Default Armour-Piercing Ammunition in Mexican Service in 2017

Does anyone know whether the Mexican Army or security services have any kind of armour-piercing ammunition in stores or being issued for service in February 2017?

I'm primarily thinking about the 7.62x51mm ammunition for their G3A3 and G3A4 battle rifles, as well as their GPMGs, and the 5.56x45mm ammunition for their various assault rifles, but if anyone has heard about any other type of armour-piercing ammunition, I'd also be interested.

I'm looking to get data on the specific rounds used by the Mexican security forces when they anticipate facing opposition in body armour (tactical gear with trauma plates) or light armoured vehicles (mostly trucks with steel plates giving DR 20-50).

It may, of course, be that the Mexican security forces are still as ill-prepared as they were in 2009-2011, when they were severely outgunned in several engagements by cartel paramilitary units, but I think there has to be at least a chance that they are better equipped to face such threats these days.

With the 12.5% yearly desertion rate from the Mexican Army (which might be a decent average to use as a base for other services) and the frequent occurance of the soldiers taking their rifle and issue ammunition with them to sell on the black market, as well as the possibility of any item in stores and armouries unaccountably finding its way into unlicensed hands, any kind of ammunition available to Mexican security forces also has a high chance of being available to cartel sicarios.

So, I'm trying to find out what specific rounds might be in service, whether they count as AP or APHC in GURPS terms and, if possible, what kind of penetrator they fire, how many grains the projectiles are and what the velocity is like.

Obviously, there might exist 7.62x39mm ammunition from other sources that counts as AP or even APHC, but I'm trying to define the threat levels beyond that.
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:23 PM   #403
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Default Re: [Modern Firepower] Technothriller gear for secret DHS team in 2017

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It seems pretty easy to get into crashes on a motorcycle that do 1d+2 cr followed up by one or more 'attacks' of abrasion from contact with the ground for ca 1d(0.2) corr. Crashing your bike in real high-speed chases seems to do upwards of 3d cr and probably a lot of nasty abrasion damage.

In light of these dangers, it seems like DR that protects from crushing and abrasion damage would be a good idea for PCs riding bikes, whether cruisers, racers, dirt bikes or dual-role motorcycles.

High-Tech has TL7 motorcycle helmets, but it doesn't list a complete set of motorcycle armor.

Are modern TL8 motorcycle helmets functionally identical to mid-20th century ones? If not, what changes should be made?

What are typical DR values for other motorcycle protective gear?

According to the Interwebz, ca $6,500 ought to buy you whole body protection like that worn by world-class competitors. That occasionally allows a trained athlete to walk away from crashing at 290+ mph. Even if we assume that this only works in the absence of a direct collision with a hard object, that still seems like the sort of speed to produce a whole fist of damage dice.

Any guesses at how much damage that would do? And how much would be crushing and how much abrasion?
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With regards to how much damage is crushing vs how much is abrasive. From my (quite varied now I think about it) experience of bike and quad crashes the division of damage would be almost random at gurps levels of detail. At one end a crush heavy crash would be bike stops suddenly, you hit bike, continue forward on an angle that results in a sudden stop then the bike hits you (23 parts of my body x-rayed after that one only a couple of broken bones though 30kph approx) At the other end, bike flips cleanly, catapulted off, land well, skate on back for many meters (20-30) and walk off (50kph approx). It didn't even put a hole in my vest.

As a general rule, the smoother the terrain the less crushing will be faced. At lower speeds various DX based rolls and skills would be good for converting all the impact energy into rotational energy.

Shock is a factor but not immediately, this isn't associated with the damage taken either.

Edit, maybe look at the knockback rules to do with hitting things while being knocked back.
Edit 2, maybe initial tumble damage then eyeball the speed of the person, halve this each turn, if they hit something then calculate damage as per stopped knockback, and apply abrasive damage for every turn spent traveling?
Ok, the various PCs have opted for protective wear ranging from 'skintight leather or latex bodysuit with stylish full helmet' to 'jeans, jacket and leather MC cut, with discreet knee pads and elbow protection under the clothes, and a half-helmet', to the supremely idiotic 'track suit... what do you mean helmet?'.

What kind of damage exposure are we looking at for a 30 mph crash in rough, rocky terrain? And how much is crushing, which requires impact-resistant protective wear, and how much abrasion/road rash, which seems almost like corrosion damage in effect, but rarely penetrates any thickness of DR (until the protective gear is ruined, at least)?

And what about a 50 mph crash on a road? I'm pretty sure someone is going to wipe out in a high speed car chase. No idea who'll be chasing whom, but hoping that O'Toole is the one who crashes.

And if Special Agent Rubio jumps off* her Guzzi Moto racer at 100 mph, what kind of damage is that going to do? And how much of it is going to be stopped by her very light, ultra-tight bodysuit?

*I don't know, maybe she's avoiding an RPG aimed at it.
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:58 PM   #404
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Default Re: [Modern Firepower] Technothriller gear for secret DHS team in 2017

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What kind of damage exposure are we looking at for a 30 mph crash in rough, rocky terrain?
The primary mechanism for slowing down will be hitting obstacles, which will generally be crushing damage. If you're lucky, it will be a bush, gravel patch, or sand. Odds of a head impact are fairly high (higher than random hit locations would give).
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And what about a 50 mph crash on a road?
If you stay on the road, would be mostly abrasion, but you're going to skid a long distance (average deceleration is probably about 10 mph/s, 5s at an average of 25 mph is about 180') which is plenty of time to go off the road and hit whatever.
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And if Special Agent Rubio jumps off* her Guzzi Moto racer at 100 mph, what kind of damage is that going to do? And how much of it is going to be stopped by her very light, ultra-tight bodysuit?
Basically the same answer as 50 mph, only skidding 4x as far.
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Old 03-12-2018, 05:11 PM   #405
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Default Re: [Modern Firepower] Technothriller gear for secret DHS team in 2017

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The primary mechanism for slowing down will be hitting obstacles, which will generally be crushing damage. If you're lucky, it will be a bush, gravel patch, or sand. Odds of a head impact are fairly high (higher than random hit locations would give).
That actually sounds like elbow and knee pads combined with a half-helmet might be a lot of help.

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If you stay on the road, would be mostly abrasion, but you're going to skid a long distance (average deceleration is probably about 10 mph/s, 5s at an average of 25 mph is about 180') which is plenty of time to go off the road and hit whatever.
During that first second at 40-50 mph, skidding along the road, what kind of abrasion damage? 2d? 1d+2? 1d? And how does it interact with DR?

In particular when various PCs may be wearing ballistic polymer / para-aramid vests, DR 1-2 elbow and knee guards designed to resist impacts and abrasion and/or skintight racing leathers / latex bodysuit?

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Basically the same answer as 50 mph, only skidding 4x as far.
And doing twice the abrasion damage in the first second?
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Old 03-12-2018, 05:28 PM   #406
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Default Re: [Modern Firepower] Technothriller gear for secret DHS team in 2017

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During that first second at 40-50 mph, skidding along the road, what kind of abrasion damage? 2d? 1d+2? 1d? And how does it interact with DR?
Well beyond my expertise, that was just eyeballing the physics. https://gizmodo.com/everything-you-e...-sa-1596858706 looks interesting.
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Old 03-13-2018, 03:42 PM   #407
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Default Re: [Modern Firepower] Technothriller gear for secret DHS team in 2017

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Can you conceal a plate carrier?
A normal plate carrier: no, not really unless you are in bulky clothing like full biker gear, as they tend to be built for military type use mostly.

But it should be noted that a standalone class IV plate does not really need an official carrier, it just needs something to properly hold it in place when you move.

The plates themselves are about 2 cm thick and 30cm by 25cm, so it is perfectly possible to build a non-military style carrier and try to hide such under medium clothing like a suit.

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
That actually sounds like elbow and knee pads combined with a half-helmet might be a lot of help.
You really also want shoulder and spinal protectors if possible. The basic "biker armor" has shoulders, knees, elbows and spine specially protected, in addition to the overall abrasion and minor bump protection. The gloves also have normally knuckle impact protection.

As example my suit has removable(for cleaning etc) armor panels in those locations in inside pockets of the suit. But some have them as non removable parts.

Quote:
During that first second at 40-50 mph, skidding along the road, what kind of abrasion damage? 2d? 1d+2? 1d? And how does it interact with DR?

In particular when various PCs may be wearing ballistic polymer / para-aramid vests, DR 1-2 elbow and knee guards designed to resist impacts and abrasion and/or skintight racing leathers / latex bodysuit?

And doing twice the abrasion damage in the first second?
I do not know what would be appropriate damage, but if you opt for actual racing suit instead of the skintight showoff suit you should really get minimal abrasion as that is the main thing they protect against. (the hardened parts or the armor panels protect against the actual impact as those are the things you hit unless there is something like a rock hitting some other part between the protections.)

You can occasionally actually see drivers in track motorbike races fall and glide along the track for quite a bit before stopping and then get up and walk away.
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:55 AM   #408
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Default Re: [Modern Firepower] Technothriller gear for secret DHS team in 2017

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A normal plate carrier: no, not really unless you are in bulky clothing like full biker gear, as they tend to be built for military type use mostly.

But it should be noted that a standalone class IV plate does not really need an official carrier, it just needs something to properly hold it in place when you move.

The plates themselves are about 2 cm thick and 30cm by 25cm, so it is perfectly possible to build a non-military style carrier and try to hide such under medium clothing like a suit.
2 cm thick plates are clearly not very concealable, except maybe from very inattentive and unprofessional opposition... and when you are wearing arctic wear.

The thickness of non-metallic body armour is a point very much in favour of high-hardness steel trauma plates, even if they are inferior protection for their weight. A 6-7mm thick steel trauma plate can provide Level III protection, but actually might be concealed, at least more plausibly than ceramic plates three times as thick.

Aside, how are you defining 'full biker gear'?

My character would very much like to be wearing a lot of protective wear against motorcycle crashes and he wouldn't mind having some protection against being shot.* The problem is that he's supposed to look like an Iron Order MC biker, who while technically not outlaw bikers, dress very much like them.

What kind of protective wear can be worn while still selling that cover ID?

I've assumed a half-helmet, gloves, either combat boots or cowboy boots and elbow and knee protectors that go under the clothes, so aren't readily noticable.**

Could he wear anything else?

*We're just supposed to talk to people, convince them to accept a deal, but my character trusts the deserting, murdering head of the local cartel about as far as he can throw him and is pretty sure he'll try to have us killed.
**If someone notices, they are more likely to assume that the character is trying to appear more macho than he is and while he pretends not to wear any protection, actually prefers not to have his knees and elbows shattered or shredded even in a fairly low-speed crash.


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You really also want shoulder and spinal protectors if possible. The basic "biker armor" has shoulders, knees, elbows and spine specially protected, in addition to the overall abrasion and minor bump protection.
Well, yes, I really want it, because I don't want my PC to get hurt. Don't want the other PCs to get hurt either. And given the way we drive, crashing seems like it is a distinct possibility.*

*My PC already failed one Driving (Motorcycle) check because he was showing off, enjoying feeling the rush of wind on his face after five years in prison and trying to get his mind off unpleasant personal things by testing his skills. And I'm not even the adrenaline-junky (Agent Rubio) or impulsive (O'Toole) PC. Fortunately, the GM allowed another Driving check to regain control and I only ended up skidding out of control for a moment, after which impact my character regained control, shaken, but mostly unhurt (some pains in the hands and arms from the shock of hitting a pothole, but below 1 HP resolution).

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The gloves also have normally knuckle impact protection.
Yeah, everyone is going to carry motorcycle gloves, at least. They'll either need to be quickly removable or useable as shooting gloves. I'm guessing that the former is more likely than the latter, but both would seem somewhat incompatible with ideal protection in a serious crash.

Any suggestions for good gloves that can be quickly shed or could be worn during action-adventure scenes other than driving motorcycles without significant penalties?

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
As example my suit has removable(for cleaning etc) armor panels in those locations in inside pockets of the suit. But some have them as non removable parts.
Which armour panels, if any, could be concealed under civilian clothing, specifically something suitable for someone affecting outlaw biker attire, i.e. jeans, leather MC cut and some other suitable upper body wear, hoodie, jeans jacket, leather jacket or sweater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by weby View Post
I do not know what would be appropriate damage, but if you opt for actual racing suit instead of the skintight showoff suit you should really get minimal abrasion as that is the main thing they protect against. (the hardened parts or the armor panels protect against the actual impact as those are the things you hit unless there is something like a rock hitting some other part between the protections.)
Too late. We're already in Mexico, in play. The GM will allow us to define some of the equipment we took along more precisely in real-world terms, i.e. replace a generic 'motorcycle suit' with an appropriate real-world model, but it has been established that out of three characters who ride motorcycle, two of them are trying to look like Iron Order MC bikers and will not wear any protective gear that doesn't fit their cover ID (or at least cannot be concealed while still appearing right).

And it's established that Agent Ilana Rubio took a form-fitting and thin suit, which might look good, but is probably much less protective than the rugged racing suits with stiff armour for collisions. She also has a leather jacket, jeans and some kind of leather or pleather chaps, as her more inconspicious riding gear and some other basic clothing appropriate to her cover ID as a gang member of the ALKQN, so far unspecified.

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You can occasionally actually see drivers in track motorbike races fall and glide along the track for quite a bit before stopping and then get up and walk away.
Indeed. What I am concerned about is what is going to happen to PCs dressed as semi-outlaw bikers too stupidly macho for protective wear, or in a skintight outfit designed for aesthetic appeal rather than function, when they inevitably suffer such a fall.

Agent Rubio, the woman in the skintight suit, is much tougher than an ordinary human, so she wouldn't necessarily suffer as much as the average person, but if she's only got, say, limited DR 1 from her suit, abrasion/road rash damage is still going to be horrible for her if it comes to 2d or anything close to it.
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Old 06-10-2018, 07:08 PM   #409
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Default Re: [Modern Firepower] Technothriller gear for secret DHS team in 2017

I just realized that, arguably, Apache Tears could be an "onyx rain". :)
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Old 06-11-2018, 01:04 AM   #410
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If you enlarge the trigger guard to be able to fit your finger through and have room for the trigger to reset I can't imagine much issue shooting in motorcycle gloves, they are very good at wrapping around and gripping . . . I've used for LARP swordplay extensively

Manipulating various small manipulatable releases and such? Ugh
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