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Old 02-01-2017, 07:28 PM   #1
Icelander
 
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Default Martial Arts in the Project Jade Serenity Supers/Technothriller Campaign

This thread is for discussion and my attempts to glean free research assistance related to martial arts for various characters in our Supers/technothriller campaign, Project Jade Serenity.

The initial questions were related to the sayagi (Grand Master) who taught my character Kachin Bando. SGM Than Yamaguchi was the senior NCO at Project Jade Serenity. Other questions I've had relate to the combatives training of prospective villain CW2 Raul Vargas. The newest questions are about martial arts for a HSI agent who was born in San Jose, CA in 1982 and happens to be an amateur martial artist and a SEAL born in Lubbock, TX, 1989, ditto.

SGM Than Yamaguchi

This relates to background for my player character in Project Jade Serenity. The game is set in the current day and character, Mackenzie Chase Taylor (b. 1978; Luverne, Alabama), is a former ODA 7216 operator who spent most of his career in A Co/2 Bn/7th SFG(A) and whose military service lasted from 1997-2011 (until his dishonourable discharge amd incarceration in Fort Leavenworth).

For reasons that should be obvious, Chase Taylor is an avid martial artist as well as a tactical shooter, and in addition to some basic military hand-to-hand training, I want him to be a dedicated student of Kachin Bando in specific and Burmese thaing in general. In order to do that, I'm planning to flesh out the backstory of a senior Green Beret NCO who acted as SGT Taylor's mentor and Kachin Bando saya from ca 1999 onwards.

The reason I'm adamant that my PC has to have had a mentor who taught him the comparatively rare Kachin Bando, rather than just stating he trained in the more common style of ABA Bando, has to do with mechanically representing the character's intended fighting style. ABA Bando, while a lot more widespread in the US than Kachin Bando, unfortunately uses Judo as the primary grappling skill.

This makes ABA Bando, as far as GURPS rules go, very unsuitable for the fighting tactics I plan on for the character, i.e. aggressive, brutal, close-in hurting; heavily featuring trapping and locking, follow-up strikes on trapped or locked limbs, hammer fists, elbow strikes and knee strikes from the clinch. No circling for position, probing attacks or feinting, just hard force-on-force strikes into the line of attacks with Aggressive Parry and Jam and following that up with full-power grappling and striking combinations.

This is the domain of styles with the primary skills of Karate and Wrestling, especially with the rules from GURPS Martial Arts: Technical Grappling in effect. Wing Chun, Krav Maga and, yes, Kachin Bando. The description of ABA Bando in GURPS Martial Arts is in line with what I want, but the mechanical representation I get if I take the style as-is would be subpar.

Mechnically, the Judo skill is good for mobile stylists who use Retreat, Sideslip and Slip heavily (incompatible with Aggressive Parry), seek to Evade in preference to engaging at trapping and locking distance and plan to use Judo Throw or Sweep to put opponents on the ground without following them down for a fight-finishing lock or some ground-and-pound.

Wrestling is clearly superior to Judo when it comes to grappling for damage or to aid striking. As an example, spending 16 points on Wrestling gives Trained ST +30% for DX+4 and the Fast Progression on all grappling and lock techniques. Spending the same 16 points on Judo gives Trained ST +0% for DX+3 and the Slow Progression.

Yes, Judo has a lot of other benefits, but the point is, someone who plans to fight using Aggressive Parry and Jam as his Active Defences, who already has Karate for defence against weapons, rarely Evades and would rather Arm Lock + Throw from Lock than use All-Out (Defence) + Judo Throw is not really someone who gets a lot of use out of the mechanical effects of Judo skill. Therefore, ABA Bando is not really suitable for the character as written.* Kachin Bando, however, is mechanically a perfect fit for the fighting style I envision.

As background to explain as exotic a fighting style as Kachin Bando for a prosaic 18B Weapon Sergeant from Alabama, I decided to write into his backstory a senior NCO mentor who had trained in Bando from childhood and was a Bando saya.

I imagined that the NCO mentor was the child of a female Burmese immigrant, ideally Kachin/Jingpaw, who had been brought back by a US serviceman as a war bride from CBI in WWII. The marriage brought in-laws and the close family of the bride managed to emigrate to the US as well, perhaps with assistance from a friendly general officer.

When checking how plausible such a background really was, I found a US instructor in Kachin Bando, Phil Dunlap, who claims to have learned the style from his grandfather, who studied Kachin Bando in Burma during WWII. I furthermore found that our own Peter V. Dell'Orto knows Phil Dunlap and has trained with him. I therefore have some questions of the forumites and I especially hope that Peter will give me the benefit of his personal experience of Burmese thaing and even specifically of studying under a US-born saya whose grandfather from Burma taught him exotic Kachin Bando.

1) Where in the USA should the American saya be raised? That is, what are good locations to assume that a family of Burmese emigrants to the USA would move after WWII?

2) If the Burmese grandfather in question was a Kachin Ranger in his late 40s who emigrates to seek a new life near his young daughter and her American husband, what kind of work might he find in the US?

3) Assuming no extraordinary resources or connections for the returning American serviceman or his Burmese-American in-laws in the post-war years, I am assuming that even if the grandfather was a gifted and dedicated martial artist, making a living from teaching an exotic martial art that isn't Japanese to Mad Men era Americans would be extremely improbable. Am I too pessimistic? Were 50s Americans perhaps less parochial than I assume (and/or the modern popularity of a wide range of exotic martial arts as hobbies began earlier than I thought)?

4) From both a roleplaying and mechanical standpoint, how would Kachin Bando combine with military hand-to-hand / combatives taught in the Special Forces? What military-sanctioned techniques, tactics and maneuver selection would a Kachin Bando stylist be likely to concur with and what aspects of US Army combatives training would a Kachin Bando stylist denigrate or disagree with?

4a) The Military HTH styles that the NCO saya would have been exposed to, studied and taught would primarily be the US Army Combatives set forth in the FM 21-150 (1992) and the LINE system as taught in SFQC between 1998-2007. He'd also have been familiar with many students of Matt Larsen's hand-to-hand methods from the 75th Ranger Regiment (the methods which eventually formed the basis for the US Army's MACP) and read Larsen's 2002 version of FM 3-25.150 (Combatives) with care. Maybe he even had a friendly sparring match or two with Larsen sometime in the years between 1989-2001, if and when the 7th SFG and the 1 Bn or 2 Bn/75th Ranger Regiment were stationed in close proximity, or maybe while assigned to training duties at John F. Kennedy SWCS or while attending a course at Ft. Benning.
When my hypothetical Green Beret saya gets the chance to be the NCOIC of combatives training for an intake of recruits going through SFQC, which of these military HTH styles will he teach and how will they be modified through his Kachin Bando experience, philosophy and preferences?

4b) What about weapon skills? What melee weapon skills best suit a Kachin Bando stylist who learns the style from a WII veteran of guerilla fighting in the Burmese hills? Are batons emphasised? Knives, kukris or machetes? Other weapons?

4c) Would a Kachin Bando stylist favour a saber-grip or a reversed grip when fighting an armed opponent in earnest with a knife? What about for sentry removal?

4d) Does traditional Kachin Bando teach any armed grappling techniques? As a consequence of how skills are broken up in GURPS, anyone who has a decent melee weapon skill and Wrestling (Arm Lock) can be quite good at using his weapon to get someone in an Arm Lock. Would doing this suit a Kachin Bando stylist?

5) Does anyone have any suggestions for bits of wisdom my character could have learnt from his saya? Imagine a grizzled training NCO whose philosophy on living, fighting and dying is shaped by his Burmese Jingpaw grandfather, complete with traditional Kachin Bando teachings and animist forms, but whose profession has trained him to be brutally pragmatic about the business of violence. What kind of lessons did he impart about the modern battlefield and developing a warrior ethos with strong foundations in personal and familial identity, but still flexible enough to adapt to tactical realities?

*Note that he has 1 point in Judo from military HTH training and already plans to have skill 12 in Savoir-Faire (Dojo). He could therefore theoretically take ABA Bando and just spend all his points on Karate and the optional skill of Wrestling. I just don't want to have the character's backstory state that he is a serious grappler and devoted student of a given fighting style, but then spend the points on everything but the primary grappling skill of my favoured style.
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Last edited by Icelander; 03-28-2017 at 05:27 AM.
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Old 02-01-2017, 08:23 PM   #2
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Default Re: US-born master of Kachin Bando in the 70s to 90s? [Dell'Orto]

I know wiki isn't a great source for things but...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bando
Quote:
Maung Gyi, the son of Ba Than Gyi, began formally teaching bando in the early 1960s in Washington, D.C. His Hanthawaddy style of bando is today the most popular Burmese martial art in USA. The American Bando Association incorporates nine animal styles including the bull, boar, cobra, viper, python, panther, tiger, scorpion and eagle. Students first learn the basics of bando before advancing to the animal techniques. The basis for the ABA's bando system is a 9x9 matrix of techniques and principles. The student is encouraged to grasp the underlying principles of the art, as one technique may only be useful in a certain situation, but the principle the technique is built on will be useful in many situations.
So going off of that, I would say raise in the Washington DC area, if the character is going to be born and raised in the US.
Was going to suggest a military brat whose family was stationed in the area, but near as I can tell, military presence was withdrawn in the 1940s for that area.

On the being part Burmese
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmese_Americans
Quote:
The first major wave of immigration from Myanmar occurred in the 1960s, after Ne Win established military rule in 1962, to the late 1970s. Most who immigrated were primarily those with Chinese origins, who arrived in increasing numbers following the 1967 anti-Chinese riots. The Burmese Chinese were the first major group of Theravada Buddhists to immigrate to the United States and were largely educated professionals, business entrepreneurs and technically skilled workers. A minority were of Anglo-Burmese and Indian descent. Some of the Burmese immigrated to the United States after the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 abolished the previously existing quota on Asian immigrants
The second wave wasn't until the 1980s.

Wiki says the biggest populations are in these areas
Quote:
Most Burmese Americans live in metropolitan areas with large immigrant populations. The Big Four metropolitan areas with sizable Burmese populations are Los Angeles, San Francisco Bay Area, New York City, and Washington D.C. Other areas of significance include Fort Wayne, Indiana, where many Burmese refugees have resided, Indianapolis, Chicago, San Diego and Florida.
So being from the Washington DC area would be most optimal, especially since that is where the style first gained momentum in the US.

As to the profession for his grandfather, could be a variety of things, can borrow from movie cliches on this, moved over started up a mom/pop grocery store, handyman, etc.
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Old 02-01-2017, 09:33 PM   #3
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Default Re: US-born master of Kachin Bando in the 70s to 90s? [Dell'Orto]

Are the dates correct in the post? I only ask because if they're correct he'll have his military service in his fifties.
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Old 02-01-2017, 09:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: US-born master of Kachin Bando in the 70s to 90s? [Dell'Orto]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Žorkell View Post
Are the dates correct in the post? I only ask because if they're correct he'll have his military service in his fifties.
Was about to ask where you got that value from, then I saw the being trained in the 70s, I was just looking at the enlistment time.
Hmm, just means he would be closer to age of some of the former military that I know and some of them are still in pretty decent shape. Probably older than most PCs but not out of the question, depending on the game.

Actually from rereading birth date time, he's more likely to be 60-70 years old.

Last edited by Warlockco; 02-01-2017 at 09:53 PM. Reason: reading comprehension
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Old 02-01-2017, 09:55 PM   #5
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Default Re: US-born master of Kachin Bando in the 70s to 90s? [Dell'Orto]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
How plausible is Green Beret combatives instructor who was born in the US between 1946-1955 and is a serious master of Kachin Bando? I need him to have flourished from the 1980s to the early 2000s, have been training Kachin Bando as early as the 70s and ideally be still alive in 2017.

I'm making a character for an upcoming campaign, one where I'm just a player and not the GM. The game is set in the current day and character is a former Special Forces operator whose military service was from 1997-2011. [/SIZE]
Being born between 1946 to 1955 he can't serve in the military from 1997-2011, maximum age to enlist into the Army is 35 years old.

Additional information: https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-t...litary-3354075
The maximum age of non-prior service enlistment under Federal Law was 35-years-old. In 2006, the Army asked Congress to raise the age limit to 44-years-old. Congress did not approve this change, but raised the maximum enlistment age from 35 to 42.


Regardless of Federal Law, the military services are allowed to impose more strict standards, and many of them have. The maximum age for non-prior service enlistments for each service is:

Active Duty Army - 42
Army Reserves - 42
Army National Guard - 42
Active Duty Air Force - 39
Air Force Reserve - 35
Air National Guard - 40
Active Duty Navy - 34
Navy Reserves - 39
Active Duty Marines - 28
Marine Corps Reserves - 29
Active Duty Coast Guard - 27
Coast Guard Reserves - 39

Last edited by Warlockco; 02-01-2017 at 09:57 PM. Reason: added more
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Old 02-01-2017, 09:57 PM   #6
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Default Re: US-born master of Kachin Bando in the 70s to 90s? [Dell'Orto]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Žorkell View Post
Are the dates correct in the post? I only ask because if they're correct he'll have his military service in his fifties.
I mention three (or even more) characters in the post, without naming them or giving the clear titles.

Let's try to be clearer. The characters are:

1) Mackenzie Chase Taylor [PC] (b. 1978; US Army service 1997-2011)
2) So-far-unnamed senior NCO of the 2 Bn/7th SFG, Kachin Bando saya [Ally/Contact/Friend/Dependent] (b. ca 1946-1955; US Army service ca 1965-2008 or maybe 1975-2017)
3) Burmese immigrant to US, maternal grandfather of 2), former Kachin Ranger in WWII, Kachin Bando saya [Dead, mentioned for background] (b. ca 1900, died ca 1995, no US Army service)
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Old 02-01-2017, 10:01 PM   #7
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Default Re: US-born master of Kachin Bando in the 70s to 90s? [Dell'Orto]

Ah okay, now things are much clearer.
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Old 02-01-2017, 10:03 PM   #8
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Default Re: US-born master of Kachin Bando in the 70s to 90s? [Dell'Orto]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlockco View Post
Was about to ask where you got that value from, then I saw the being trained in the 70s, I was just looking at the enlistment time.
Hmm, just means he would be closer to age of some of the former military that I know and some of them are still in pretty decent shape. Probably older than most PCs but not out of the question, depending on the game.

Actually from rereading birth date time, he's more likely to be 60-70 years old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlockco View Post
Being born between 1946 to 1955 he can't serve in the military from 1997-2011, maximum age to enlist into the Army is 35 years old.

Additional information: https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-t...litary-3354075
The maximum age of non-prior service enlistment under Federal Law was 35-years-old. In 2006, the Army asked Congress to raise the age limit to 44-years-old. Congress did not approve this change, but raised the maximum enlistment age from 35 to 42.


Regardless of Federal Law, the military services are allowed to impose more strict standards, and many of them have. The maximum age for non-prior service enlistments for each service is:

Active Duty Army - 42
Army Reserves - 42
Army National Guard - 42
Active Duty Air Force - 39
Air Force Reserve - 35
Air National Guard - 40
Active Duty Navy - 34
Navy Reserves - 39
Active Duty Marines - 28
Marine Corps Reserves - 29
Active Duty Coast Guard - 27
Coast Guard Reserves - 39
My PC, Mackenzie Chase Taylor, is born in 1978 and served from 1997-2011. He is not the same character as his proposed NPC mentor, the senior 7th SFG NCO with a Burmese grandfather. The mentor was born 1946-1955 and was therefore at least 42 years old when Chase first met him.
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Old 02-02-2017, 12:27 AM   #9
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Default Re: US-born master of Kachin Bando in the 70s to 90s? [Dell'Orto]

Okay back to the subject matter, I think I more or less threw out some stuff for items 1-3, the rest of the laundry list, I'm not sure.

4 would have to be either researched, made up, or answered by a combination of people familiar with Green Berets and Kachin Bando or Bando in general.

5 I have no clue, since my background is Chinese (Taiwanese) and German-American, with family/friends that are readily accessible for questions being Air Force or Marines. Do have family are Army, but they aren't readily accessible.
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Old 02-02-2017, 07:59 AM   #10
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Default Re: US-born master of Kachin Bando in the 70s to 90s? [Dell'Orto]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlockco View Post
I know wiki isn't a great source for things but...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bando
Note that Maung Gyi is the son of a member of the Union of Burma's political elite and learned Hanthawaddy Bando in his youth in Burma, which he then further developed to found ABA Bando in the US. His initial choice of Washington DC as his home in the US may have been influenced by the relationship of his politician father with American diplomats and politicians.

I don't have the knowledge or experience to rate how different Hanthawaddy Bando is from ABA Bando or for that matter how far either is from Kachin Bando. I know that in GURPS terms, ABA Bando and Kachin Bando are extremely different, due to the mechanical effects of substituting Wrestling for Judo as the primary grappling skill.

I also know that the original inhabitants of Hanthawaddy (lower Burma, the coastal southern lowland) were the Mon people, speakers of an Austroasiatic language, and while assimilation and intermarriage has resulted in them adopting the Sino-Tibetan (Lolo-Burmese branch) Burman language in recent centuries, they are ethnically distinct from the main ethnic group of Burma, the Bamar, and utterly foreign from the Jingpaw of the northern Burmese hills of the Kachin State.

The Jingpaw or Kachin speak one of several Kachin-Luic languages from the Sal branch of the Sino-Tibetan language and are apparently more related to other minority groups in Nepal, India and elsewhere around the Tibetan plateau than the majority Bamar people of Burma. The urban, lowland people of Burma/Myanmar have also tended toward xenophobia and chauvinism toward the ethnic minorities in the northern Kachin State.

The Sino-Tibetan family is increasingly coming under attack as a coherent language family. Genetic/genealogical relationships between some of the langauges are certainly difficult to establish. As a result, some linguists consider the Kachin-Luic languages no more related to some of the other Sino-Tibetan languages than, say, English is to Hungarian or Turkish. I wouldn't go that far. There is a discernable relationship of some sort with Burmese, though no doubt some would claim that parts of that are due to borrowing, not a close geneological relationship. From what I can find out, I should rate Burmese and Jingpaw as about as close to each other as English and Italian.

All of which is a long-winded way to say that I'm far from sure that the spread of ABA Bando, derived from Hanthawaddy Bando and more-or-less systemic attemps by the Union of Burma to codify ht most widespread varieties of Bando, helps me establish the background of the proposed mentor NPC, a saya of Kachin Bando, the fighting style of an ethnic minority culturally, linguistically and politically isolated from the peoples who made up the Union of Burma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlockco View Post
So going off of that, I would say raise in the Washington DC area, if the character is going to be born and raised in the US.
Was going to suggest a military brat whose family was stationed in the area, but near as I can tell, military presence was withdrawn in the 1940s for that area.
A military brat is not a bad background. The enlisted man who married a Kachin girl during WWII might have remained in the service after the war.

I'm toying with the idea to make the mentor's father Japanese-American. Some of the Nisei interpreters of the Military Intelligence Service in Burma fought with Merrill's Maurauders and several joined Detachment 101 to fight with the Kachin Rangers. There's no real reason to do it, other than to subvert the stereotype that a Green Beret combatives instructor NCO named Yamaguchi must necessarily be a master of judo or karate. I suppose I'd like to high-light the cultural melting pot aspect of the US by the mentor NPC having ancestors who were 'originally' from Japan, Hawai, Burma and Europe, but not being a hyphenated-American of any easily quantifiable label.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlockco View Post
On the being part Burmese
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmese_Americans

The second wave wasn't until the 1980s.

Wiki says the biggest populations are in these areas

So being from the Washington DC area would be most optimal, especially since that is where the style first gained momentum in the US.
Hmmm... Fort Wayne, Indiana, is an intriguing idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlockco View Post
As to the profession for his grandfather, could be a variety of things, can borrow from movie cliches on this, moved over started up a mom/pop grocery store, handyman, etc.
What can a proud, confident man who was respected in his home country* and who fought the Japanese as a Kachin Ranger, a commando trained by OSS men, find to do that will not diminish his self-respect?

Assume that his son-in-law (the eventual father of our NPC mentor and Bando saya to my PC) was an enlisted man in WWII when he met his Kachin war bride, used up any influence he might have had in helping his wife's family immigrate and doesn't have much money to help his father-in-law set up a business of any kind.

The grandfather spoke quaint, but intelligable English from his years with the OSS trainers, but he would have been illiterate and his status as a formiddable Htwi hkyen (Kachin Lethwei) contenter, naban champion and respected Bando saya (master) or even sayagyi (grandmaster) in his home village would probably not help him in the US job market.

*Though not universally popular. I'm assuming that he wanted to emigrate because he was known as a leading Christian, pro-Western, anti-Communist figure in his local area. If the local headman had become a convinced party member of CPB during the war, the grandfather and his family might well foresee strife and persecution if he remained in his village.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlockco View Post
Okay back to the subject matter, I think I more or less threw out some stuff for items 1-3, the rest of the laundry list, I'm not sure.
Yeah, thanks for the help. All discussion is good for background, as it helps ideas firm up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlockco View Post
4 would have to be either researched, made up, or answered by a combination of people familiar with Green Berets and Kachin Bando or Bando in general.
Well, I wouldn't say that I'm familiar with Green Berets, but I've read my share of biographies and books by embedded journalists. It's about Bando that I know almost nothing except that which is written in GURPS Martial Arts and what I can find using Google. Which is why I ask the forumites. There are a lot of people with eclectic interests here, as evidenced by the fact that the co-author of GURPS Martial Arts has trained in Kachin Bando with someone whose grandfather learned it in the Kachin State.

Who knows what other forumites might know? For all I know, others here might be trained in the LINE system or some form of Bando, have a friend from Burma or be semi-professional students of East Asian cultures, US waves of immigration or the martial arts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlockco View Post
5 I have no clue, since my background is Chinese (Taiwanese) and German-American, with family/friends that are readily accessible for questions being Air Force or Marines. Do have family are Army, but they aren't readily accessible.
I confess that I don't know much about Myanmar cultures, Theravada Buddhim, animism in Myanmar or the Kachin State or the philosophies which inform any form of Bando. However, I have faith that someone on the forums will.
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