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Old 12-28-2016, 08:57 AM   #1
Captain Joy
 
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Default Sumo Wrestling skill and Knockback > falling down

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Originally Posted by B378
Anyone who suffers knockback must attempt a roll against the highest of DX, Acrobatics, or Judo. On a failure, he falls down.
I'm surprised the Sumo Wrestling skill isn't listed here as being a go-to skill for keeping your feet after suffering knockback. I would think it would be even more appropriate than Judo skill.

Please explain to me why I'm wrong or right.
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Old 12-28-2016, 11:39 AM   #2
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Default Re: Sumo Wrestling skill and Knockback > falling down

I think you're right. Sumo is basically knockback / knockdown as a sport; its experts should be better at resisting knockdown after knockback than anyone.

I think the reason this happened is that Sumo Wrestling is a relatively recent addition to GURPS (first appeared in Martial Arts for 3E, first added to Basic in 4E), so not all of the rules have taken it fully into account.

This is now in my mental list of too-obvious-to-need-to-be-in-the-books house rules.
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Old 12-28-2016, 11:50 AM   #3
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Default Re: Sumo Wrestling skill and Knockback > falling down

I third this. Easy enough fix for individual settings as a House Rule.
Still I hope that something like "Judo skill can be used instead of DX in any roles to avoid or resist knockback."
That is still limited compared to Judo.
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Last edited by Refplace; 12-29-2016 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 12-29-2016, 03:40 AM   #4
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Default Re: Sumo Wrestling skill and Knockback > falling down

In GURPS terms Knockdown and Knockback are very different things

Knockdown is when you take a bad enough injury that causes your body to react by being unable to support itself.

This is a threat with any Major wound, Vitals, Eyes, Face and Skull hits (and made more likely if its a Major wound to those locations).

This is a physiological reaction (hence it being based on HT) and not much to do with staying stable and upright while grappling/wrestling. Thus I wouldn't give any direct benefit from Sumo or Judo to that roll. Although I'd happily allow experienced Judo/Sumo wrestlers buy HT as part of the overall benefits of being a trained and conditioned fighter. I.e they can "take a punch/hit"


Knock back is very different and I'd certainly allow Sumo to be used in the same way as Judo.

One other indirect way I think Sumo is likely to aid in resisting knockback gets into how GURPS does Mass. Sumo style wrestling tends to encourage a big heavy build. Now in it's simplest form that might just be high ST, well high ST allow you resist knockback by increasing the knockback threshold. You also get direct bonuses to this threshold for Fat and V.Fat build types

So for example a ST12 sumo wrestler who's V.Fat has a knockback threshold 12+3-2 = 13 if he's trying to two handed shove an a equally statted sumo wrestler and say he qualified for the +2 skill damage bonus on a shove so (1d-1+2)*2 he's only going to inflict knock back on a 6!


However a more nuanced approach might be to consider resisting knockback is more a matter of mass than ST, and HP is a better match for mass than ST.
I certainly have no issue with modelling Sumo wrestlers with extra HP to account for extra body mass, as opposed to just increasing ST.
But then the idea of sumo wrestlers who are just strong in general doesn't really faze me either, so it's really just a matter of precise preference and both are good!

If you use Technical Grappling while it has "Strength as a Proxy for Mass" i.e. it directly uses ST and doesn't use HP (although as it says HP is based off ST) it does also have the optional "Grappling Weight Modifier" rules for mass based moves that directly links to weight/mass, and make it harder to shove heavier opponents around. Meaning that heavy sumo wrestlers will indeed be harder to shove or force a posture change on.


A similar situation in terms of falling down is Slams. With Slams GURPS invokes mass but this time with HP! Which indirectly favours that big heavy Sumo wrestler. They also get a skill bonus to damage when they make a slam. I don't think it would be too wild a house rule to give that skill based bonus to damage when being slammed as well*.

(Sumo matches that involve slams get a bit lopsided if you don't, as the sumo wrestler who's slams get's a significant damage bonus and thus advantage in determining the likely end result over the sumo wrestler receiving the slam).

You could also allow the sumo skill to be used for the DX roll to stay on your feet in a slam (although that might end up double dipping if you also allow the bonus to damage on both sides of a slam as per above)



*in rugby I've bounced off my fair share of props!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-30-2016 at 12:31 AM.
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Old 12-29-2016, 02:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: Sumo Wrestling skill and Knockback > falling down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
In GURPS terms Knockdown and Knockback are very different things

Knockdown is when you take a bad enough injury that causes your body to react by being unable to support itself.

This is a threat with any Major wound, Vitals, Eyes, Face and Skull hits (and made more likely if its a Major wound to those locations).

This is a physiological reaction (hence it being based on HT) and not much to do with staying stable and upright while grappling/wrestling. Thus I wouldn't given any direct benefit from Sumo or Judo to that roll. Although I'd happily allow experienced Judo/Sumo wrestlers buy HT as part of the overall benefits of being a trained and conditioned fighter. I.e they can "take a punch/hit"
In shorter and less explanatory, there are no DX rolls to resist knockdown in the first place.
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Old 12-29-2016, 05:38 PM   #6
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Sumo Wrestling skill and Knockback > falling down

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
I don't like relying on Fat/Vfat too much, legendary Chiyonofuji was apparently pretty lean and one of the better sumos, I think much is in their technique and stuff.

Perhaps we could limit their resistance to knockback to only frontal attacks though. I imagine Judoka would be better at avoiding knockdowns from the rear or the sides since they do those over the shoulder flips while sumo are always facing a single opponent.
GURPS isn't very consistent with how it handles mass (the Fat and V.Fat advantages add to the pile of situation specific rules)

A possible alternative house rule to just allowing Sumo Skill instead of DX or Judo might be to give a TG Trained ST bonus from Sumo to the knockback threshold or add it to the DX roll to stay on your feet. As it is if you just allow a skill it becomes very hard to Knock someone off their feet even with large amounts of knockback if they have skills of 14+

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-30-2016 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 12-29-2016, 06:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: Sumo Wrestling skill and Knockback > falling down

I agree Sumo skill should be added to that as something to roll against.
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Old 12-30-2016, 12:25 AM   #8
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Sumo Wrestling skill and Knockback > falling down

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
In shorter and less explanatory, there are no DX rolls to resist knockdown in the first place.
Yep, but since there seemed to be some confusion over the term in GURPS I thought it might be worth the explanation.

and of course I love the sound of my own keyboard :-0
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Old 12-30-2016, 12:52 AM   #9
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Default Re: Sumo Wrestling skill and Knockback > falling down

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Yep, but since there seemed to be some confusion over the term in GURPS I thought it might be worth the explanation.

and of course I love the sound of my own keyboard :-0
Sometimes long is good, sometimes short is good, most times it probably depends on who's reading it anyway.

I thought providing the TLDR version might help some.
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Old 12-30-2016, 02:31 AM   #10
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Default Re: Sumo Wrestling skill and Knockback > falling down

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Sometimes long is good, sometimes short is good...

That's what my wife says, but I think she only says it to make me feel better!
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