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Old 12-26-2016, 01:01 PM   #11
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: affects insubstantial follow-up

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Originally Posted by Johnny Angel View Post
So, for both parts of the attack to affect insubstantial, they would both need that modifier?

I can see how it might be a little confusing. Follow-Up seems to imply that the carrier attack needs to hit to trigger the follow-up.

Or is there a way to have a follow-up which does not require the carrier attack to hit?

Using Link to combine an attack which does not affect insubstantial with an attack which does affect insubstantial would work.
Oh, it still needs to hit, so you roll to hit normally. The carrier hits and passes through the insubstantial character, doing no damage and no affliction and the like. Meanwhile, the follow-up Mystic Flame through the ghost.

(Of course, some follow-ups only trigger on impact, such as impact-fused grenades. You'll have to target the ground under the ghost's legs instead for those.)
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Old 12-26-2016, 01:16 PM   #12
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Default Re: affects insubstantial follow-up

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Originally Posted by Edges View Post
Follow-Up only affects the target if the carrier attack "hits." But neither Insubstantial nor Affects Insubstantial say anything about hitting. A reasonable interpretation is that you can hit things that are insubstantial normally and if either the follow-up or the carrier has Affects Insubstantial, then that part has an effect.
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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Oh, it still needs to hit, so you roll to hit normally. The carrier hits and passes through the insubstantial character, doing no damage and no affliction and the like. Meanwhile, the follow-up Mystic Flame through the ghost.

(Of course, some follow-ups only trigger on impact, such as impact-fused grenades. You'll have to target the ground under the ghost's legs instead for those.)
That makes sense.

Though it does make me question what the difference would be between the the two options below:

Innate Attack which does not hurt insubstantial things with a follow up that does.

Innate Attack which does not hurt insubstantial things linked (using Link) with an Innate Attack which does.
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Old 12-26-2016, 01:21 PM   #13
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Default Re: affects insubstantial follow-up

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Originally Posted by Johnny Angel View Post
That makes sense.

Though it does make me question what the difference would be between the the two options below:

Innate Attack which does not hurt insubstantial things with a follow up that does.

Innate Attack which does not hurt insubstantial things linked (using Link) with an Innate Attack which does.
It would make a difference against substantial things when dealing with DR, cover etc.
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Old 12-26-2016, 01:49 PM   #14
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Default Re: affects insubstantial follow-up

How would the Follow Up penetrate DR?

For sake of example, let's say there's the ghost of a knight. The ghost is insubstantial, but wears ghostly armor. My sword passes through the ghost and does zero damage. The Follow Up triggers, but it never made it through the ghost's insubstantial suit of armor.
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Old 12-26-2016, 02:38 PM   #15
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Default Re: affects insubstantial follow-up

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Originally Posted by Johnny Angel View Post
How would the Follow Up penetrate DR?

For sake of example, let's say there's the ghost of a knight. The ghost is insubstantial, but wears ghostly armor. My sword passes through the ghost and does zero damage. The Follow Up triggers, but it never made it through the ghost's insubstantial suit of armor.
In that case, the DR is applied normally against the Follow-Up, just like it is under other circumstances. The mythic flame hits the ghost's armour and disperses while the sword passes through. If there's enough damage for the mythic flame to penetrate the DR, the remaining damage is applied against the ghost; if there's not enough, then there's no injury.
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Old 12-26-2016, 04:42 PM   #16
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Default Re: affects insubstantial follow-up

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
In that case, the DR is applied normally against the Follow-Up, just like it is under other circumstances. The mythic flame hits the ghost's armour and disperses while the sword passes through. If there's enough damage for the mythic flame to penetrate the DR, the remaining damage is applied against the ghost; if there's not enough, then there's no injury.
I'm pretty sure RAW that a Follow-Up Attack doesn't need to penetrate the DR, in fact I think there is some combination that say it can't.

Now a Link(ed) attack on the other hand ...
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Old 12-26-2016, 04:45 PM   #17
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Default Re: affects insubstantial follow-up

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Originally Posted by scc View Post
I'm pretty sure RAW that a Follow-Up Attack doesn't need to penetrate the DR, in fact I think there is some combination that say it can't.

Now a Link(ed) attack on the other hand ...
Nope, RAW says no such thing. And Linked attacks both roll separately against DR, so, there's no "carrier" involved.
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Old 12-26-2016, 05:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: affects insubstantial follow-up

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Originally Posted by scc View Post
I'm pretty sure RAW that a Follow-Up Attack doesn't need to penetrate the DR, in fact I think there is some combination that say it can't.

Now a Link(ed) attack on the other hand ...
If and only if the Carrier manages to get past DR, then the Follow-Up gets to ignore DR. Otherwise the Follow-Up attack works without any special modifications.
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Old 12-26-2016, 05:04 PM   #19
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Default Re: affects insubstantial follow-up

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
If and only if the Carrier manages to get past DR, then the Follow-Up gets to ignore DR. Otherwise the Follow-Up attack works without any special modifications.
I'm pretty sure the Follow-up doesn't work at all if it fails to penetrate the DR, which is he real point of Linked attacks, the both go off, subject onto to their own limits
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Old 12-26-2016, 05:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: affects insubstantial follow-up

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
I'm pretty sure the Follow-up doesn't work at all if it fails to penetrate the DR, which is he real point of Linked attacks, the both go off, subject onto to their own limits
This is something that I keep seeing forumites say, but that I never found any basis for.

Like, say I throw a grenade at a window. If it penetrates the window's DR and flies into the room, it does internal damage to the room. If it somehow fails to penetrate the window DR, it'll explode next to the window and do its explosive damage to it.

I'd really, really appreciate if people started backing up such claims with quotes before spreading them, since this confuses the newbies.

Because currently we in fact have a FAQ section on this, which say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAQ3.4.5.10
3.4.5.10 Follow-up ignores DR if the carrier penetrates it. Is it automatically stopped if the carrier fails to penetrate?

No! Example: If a grenade hits you for 1d crushing in the head (with skull DR 2 stopping it completely on a roll of 1), it still explodes for 3d cr ex. Now, poisons are another matter: Toxic and Fatigue attacks on realistic weapons frequently have Blood Agent. In this case, the follow-up will indeed be stopped if the carrier fails to penetrate. However, there is no discount (limitation value) on the follow-up attack for this, as a strong carrier negates the limitation, and basing limitation value on carrier damage is too un-generic.
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Last edited by vicky_molokh; 12-27-2016 at 12:43 AM.
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