Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-30-2016, 09:42 PM   #11
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kfireblade View Post
Then it is really obnoxious that that is the only IFV in the book is the BTR. after some research I know other IFV's could protect from small arms fire.
APC and IFV are not synonymous.
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 09:50 PM   #12
Kfireblade
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
APC and IFV are not synonymous.
No but as far as I know they have similar Armour right?
Kfireblade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 10:01 PM   #13
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kfireblade View Post
No but as far as I know they have similar Armour right?
No, APCs are basically survivable trucks, IFVs are designed to actually get into fights.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 10:06 PM   #14
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kfireblade View Post
No but as far as I know they have similar Armour right?
While armor apparently isn't the formal definition of the difference, IFVs often have considerably more armor, including some solidly into the tank range (though I only know of one case with MBT-grade protection).
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 10:59 PM   #15
Phantasm
 
Phantasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On the road again...
Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

APCs tend to carry more troops with lighter support weapons, often without a main turret; IFVs carry fewer troops on average but have heavier support weapons, often on a main turret. Armor varies by nationality and manufacturer, but IFVs tend to have better armor.

An APC will often carry 10-15 soldiers plus their gear, with a crew of 2, and armed with an exposed mount machine gun for protection. IFVs carry 6-9 soldiers, a crew of 3-5, and will mount anything from a 30mm chaingun up to a 90mm tank gun or a set of recoilless rifles/missiles for offense. A good comparison is the M113 APC vs the M2 Bradley IFV, though the Bradleys tend to be pretty light on armor (for various reasons including but not limited to being designed by committee).
__________________
"But mom, I don't wanna go back in the dungeon!"

The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting
Phantasm is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 11:31 PM   #16
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantasm View Post
APCs tend to carry more troops with lighter support weapons, often without a main turret; IFVs carry fewer troops on average but have heavier support weapons, often on a main turret. Armor varies by nationality and manufacturer, but IFVs tend to have better armor.

An APC will often carry 10-15 soldiers plus their gear, with a crew of 2, and armed with an exposed mount machine gun for protection. IFVs carry 6-9 soldiers, a crew of 3-5, and will mount anything from a 30mm chaingun up to a 90mm tank gun or a set of recoilless rifles/missiles for offense. A good comparison is the M113 APC vs the M2 Bradley IFV, though the Bradleys tend to be pretty light on armor (for various reasons including but not limited to being designed by committee).
Bradleys are substantially better armored than many of the things considered to be IFVs.
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 01:01 AM   #17
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

Yeah all this is about a range of effect not hard and fast APC armour beats Rifles all the time. rules of thumb.


If nothing else you have to look at what these things were designed for

The BRDM is a scout vehicle designed to operate out and about in the countryside, see something and bug out before it gets into a fight (hence all it's DR up front for initial contact only)

But you look at the up-armoured Humvee this is a patrol vehicle that came about after having operated in built up areas were opponents could pop out at close range and at 360 degrees. So it has DR40 sides and rear as well. Because it's designed to do a different job.

Armour is heavy unless you have the luxury of over engineering you put just enough to do what you want most of the time.

Which is also why the BRDM is only 1.7 tons heaver than the Humvee even though it's also got a turret, machine guns, considerably more range, being the bigger vehicle and predates it by 35 years.

Then of course we're only looking at the effect of 5.56mm assult rifles against the DR

5d6 will on average be 17.5 damage so on average will not get through, and will only beat DR20 22% of the time (I agree armour as dice gives a good result here) so yeah on a lucky roll some will get through it's true.

But what effect will it have? Against an Unliving target so against the BRDM itself pi is 1/3 damage so even if you roll really well you're not going to get that much effect.

Against occupants, it gets odd as GURPS has two ways to effect occupants.

1). You treat the hit as per normal after it get past the DR20 so pretty much any armour will keep them safe and/or the wound will be pretty insignificant unless they get really unlucky

2). the rules for knock on effect on occupants means you have to do at least 5 points of penetrating damage to the vehicle to maybe inflict 1d cut on an occupant's random location. Which means you have to be rolling 25+ damage initially, which is actually only 3.4% chance on 5d. And even then again most body armour will absorb 1d cut.


But yep sitting in a DR20 armoured car won't keep you completely safe on a battlefield even against small arms, but it will protect you massively compared to not having it. Therefore it will increase you longevity against small arms enough to hopefully do your job.


The thing is putting enough armour to completely protect you against small arms will make you slow and big (and being big makes you even slower), which means you more likely to get tagged by something worse and you will not have enough DR to protect you against that!

Armoured cars (and those in them) survive by shrugging off small bullets and frag, and not being hit by larger stuff

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-01-2016 at 06:39 AM.
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 01:12 AM   #18
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

The terminology does tell you something -- they are actually, in principle, intended for different purposes:
APC stands for Armored Personnel Carrier -- it's something designed to carry troops around, that has armor.
IFV stands for Infantry Fighting Vehicle -- it's something designed to carry troops around and also fight.

Thus, IFVs are expected to have more fighting power than APCs, which generally means better armor and weapons. Of course, you have the occasional misnomer, and oddities such as the Merkava (which is typically classed as an MBT, but can in fact carry 6 infantry as well as its crew).

Incidentally, Light Armored Vehicle doesn't necessarily mean an infantry carrier at all, though it often does.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.

Last edited by Anthony; 12-01-2016 at 01:18 AM.
Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 03:13 AM   #19
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

There's also the wider issue of the context of the fight in question.

Lets take the worse scenario imaginable for our BDRM against a bunch of chaps with M16s. It's driven into a built up area and is surrounded (so can't use it superior manoeuvrability or keep that DR40 pointed against the incoming fire)

Yes in theory those chaps can eventually plink this thing to death with 5.56 5d pi.

But don't forget while they are doing this, it's firing back with either 7.62x54mmR or even 14.5x114mm!
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
damage resistance, guns, high tech, penetration, vehicles

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.