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Old 11-30-2016, 06:59 PM   #1
Kfireblade
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Default Light Armored Vehicle DR

So I noticed looking through high tech that the cold war BTR has mostly DR 20. That dose not seem right to me when the damage of an M16 is 5d6. Correct me if I am wrong but irl if you stood there with an M16 or AK-47 and shot at an APC or light fighting vehicle even with AP rounds hell would freeze over before you got through that armor right? 5d6 cold get through DR 20 on a high roll even without AP rounds.
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Old 11-30-2016, 07:08 PM   #2
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

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Originally Posted by Kfireblade View Post
So I noticed looking through high tech that the cold war BTR has mostly DR 20. That dose not seem right to me when the damage of an M16 is 5d6. Correct me if I am wrong but irl if you stood there with an M16 or AK-47 and shot at an APC or light fighting vehicle even with AP rounds hell would freeze over before you got through that armor right?
Depends on the APC. The BTR-60 appears to have had 7mm of armor, which is DR 20 in GURPS.
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Old 11-30-2016, 07:12 PM   #3
Kfireblade
 
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Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

But the question is would I REALLY have a chance of getting through its armor with an assault rifle in real life.
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Old 11-30-2016, 07:13 PM   #4
VariousRen
 
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Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

Using some sort of armour to dice rule solves that a little bit. The basic idea is that every 7 DR results in 2d of damage being ignored INSTEAD of actually rolling it. So 21 DR would bounce off shots of 6d or less automatically, no roll needed.

armour to dice works well for firearms against heavy armour where penetration tends to be very regular. A 5d6 bullet does a minimum of 5 damage and a max of 30, but it's unreasonable to think that fired at a flat plate of metal you would regular 30DR worth of steel to be completely immune, but occasionally bounce off of 1/6 the thickness. I believe one of the pyramid articles had a armour to dice system, but I'm not sure which one.

I have no clue if the actual armour thickness is reasonable, I'm sure others have more experience with military vehicles than I do.
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Old 11-30-2016, 07:44 PM   #5
starslayer
 
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Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

If it was just sitting there, and you were close (IE GURPS 1/2D range), and your pumping magazine after magazine into it, you would probably do a fair number on the armour, you might eventually see a penetration.

I remember a friend and I decided we were going to make our own steel target for the range. So we took 3/4 inch of hot rolled hardened steel and put it on a fixed mount (IE- unlike a professional target which moves and swings around with every hit, this just took the shot and stayed perfectly still). After a day at the range firing at 100+ meters with a variety of rounds the target was full of pock marks, though only one round ever punctured through (I believe it was a 7.62 round rather than 5.56). 3/4 inch is 19mm.

Non-immunity to small arms fire is why APCs are fitted with machine guns. Non immunity to large arms fire (RPGs and the like) are why they are fitted with heavy machine guns (able to fire at longer range then the RPG). Non-immunity to tanks is why they are kept lightly armored enough to drive away from targets they have no chance of engaging. Its a balancing act- make it more heavily armored, give up the ability to run away from large threats

Last edited by starslayer; 11-30-2016 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 11-30-2016, 08:19 PM   #6
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

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Non-immunity to small arms fire is why APCs are fitted with machine guns. Non immunity to large arms fire (RPGs and the like) are why they are fitted with heavy machine guns (able to fire at longer range then the RPG). Non-immunity to tanks is why they are kept lightly armored enough to drive away from targets they have no chance of engaging.
Not really on any account. Rifles are not a major threat to APCs even if they might have a small chance of penetration. Anti-vehicle grenades and anti-tank launchers certainly are, but a medium machine gun generously outranges those.

Outranging infantry anti-armor weapons doesn't really impress, since your effective range against infantry is basically never the range of your weapon. HMGs may be preferable for fire support against infantry but are also significant for increased threat against aircraft and light vehicles.

And APCs being light-weight doesn't reliably give them any ability to outrun tanks. It tends to reduce cost, increase portability (especially by air), let them cross lighter bridges and such. If your APCs are running away from tanks they're probably counting on a rear-guard of infantry and places that infantry could be but actually aren't.
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Old 11-30-2016, 08:26 PM   #7
acrosome
 
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Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

BTRs are pretty thin-skinned. The APCs from that era are really meant to protect it's occupants from fragmentation more than anything. And American infantry in WWII would engage the Sdkfz with BARs and kill them, though granted that's .30-06. I would think of a high 5.56mm damage roll (>20) as a bullet finding it's way into a shot trap or weak spot. For instance, various wires and lines have to penetrate the armor somehow, and this is a spot where a shot can sneak through. Or a vent, a vision block, or a turret ring, or something. (No, this doesn't really jive with the GURPS standard of 70DR/inch RHA, but this is a game.)
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Old 11-30-2016, 08:30 PM   #8
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Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

The general idea of APCs and IFVs is to transport infantry into a hot zone, and in the case of the IFV to provide some cover fire. Generally nowadays (since '60-ish, actually) they're going up against insurgents rather than enemies operating on an equal footing. Therefore, they're going to be designed to protect against personal infantry weapons, not anti-tank weapons.

The 5d damage from the AR-15/M-16 series and AK-47 series weapons has a median of 17.5, max 30; DR 20 protects against the bulk of the damage done to that, and the HP of the vehicle pretty much ensures the excess goes to the vehicle rather than the people inside, in GURPS terms. In RL, not sure how that works, given the tendency of some bullets to go spalling around inside the APC.
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Old 11-30-2016, 09:11 PM   #9
Rockwolf66
 
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Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

the Russian BTR series had really bad armor. there are known flaws in that armor and those flaws cost the lives of many BTR crew members. Yes the armor really is bad enough that small arms can punch through it.
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Old 11-30-2016, 09:52 PM   #10
Kfireblade
 
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Default Re: Light Armored Vehicle DR

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the Russian BTR series had really bad armor. there are known flaws in that armor and those flaws cost the lives of many BTR crew members. Yes the armor really is bad enough that small arms can punch through it.
Then it is really obnoxious that that is the only IFV in the book is the BTR. after some research I know other IFV's could protect from small arms fire.
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