Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-30-2016, 12:21 PM   #11
GM Joe
 
GM Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Chicagoland
Default Re: Technical Grappling can someone help me figure it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
And he's an hour ahead of us
Well, there you go. That explains it.

=)

Back on topic, I'm glad you asked this question. I'm hoping that the Dungeon Grappling book I've backed on Kickstarter will have applicable explanations and detail, or otherwise help me use the GURPS version better.
__________________
GMing Since 1982.
GM Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 01:23 PM   #12
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: Technical Grappling can someone help me figure it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
It seems Ghostdancer himself is work a Perk.
If you worked with him in a professional capacity (as I have), if you gamed with him as a GM or player (as I have), or if you've relied on him to playtest your work (as most GURPS authors these days have), you'd realize he can only be costed as an Ally. Or maybe a Patron.
__________________
The Deadly Spring "...probably the most infamous Pyramid article of all time."-Jeffro's Car Wars Blog
Gaming Ballistic: Home of Gaming Ballistic, LLC and my blog.
DouglasCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 02:21 PM   #13
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Technical Grappling can someone help me figure it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
It seems Ghostdancer himself is worth a Perk.
An army of one CP?

Anyway, my own grappling question, not limited solely to TG, so hopefully not too much of a thread hijack:

Do throws break your existing grapple and/or lock? That is, do you grapple on turn 1, throw on turn 2, and then on turn 3 can just apply the lock pain and do some other attack; or do you grapple on turn 1, throw on turn 2, then attempt to re-grapple on turn 3?

If the answer differs in real life, Basic, MA, and TG, I'm happy to know the answers for all four. Also if the answer differs for vanilla grapples and locks. (It currently seems to me that a lock is a sub-type of "grapple", so things true of grapples are also true of locks, unless stated otherwise.)

Basic/MA RAW seems clear enough that failed attempts at throws do not break grapples, unless it's a crit fail, which does. That leaves unstated what happens on a successful throw. Since the rules don't say anything happens, normally I'd assume that you retain your lock through the throw, and still have it afterward. Glancing at a couple of YouTube videos on judo, it seems like that might be the case. They don't generally let go. But I'm unsure of the intent, especially given the particularly Sport-y nature of modern judo.
Anaraxes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2016, 02:32 PM   #14
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: Technical Grappling can someone help me figure it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
An army of one CP?

Anyway, my own grappling question, not limited solely to TG, so hopefully not too much of a thread hijack:

Do throws break your existing grapple and/or lock? That is, do you grapple on turn 1, throw on turn 2, and then on turn 3 can just apply the lock pain and do some other attack; or do you grapple on turn 1, throw on turn 2, then attempt to re-grapple on turn 3?

If the answer differs in real life, Basic, MA, and TG, I'm happy to know the answers for all four. Also if the answer differs for vanilla grapples and locks. (It currently seems to me that a lock is a sub-type of "grapple", so things true of grapples are also true of locks, unless stated otherwise.)

Basic/MA RAW seems clear enough that failed attempts at throws do not break grapples, unless it's a crit fail, which does. That leaves unstated what happens on a successful throw. Since the rules don't say anything happens, normally I'd assume that you retain your lock through the throw, and still have it afterward. Glancing at a couple of YouTube videos on judo, it seems like that might be the case. They don't generally let go. But I'm unsure of the intent, especially given the particularly Sport-y nature of modern judo.
I'll give you my answer, which is that by and large a true throw is going to break your lock but not necessarily your grapple.

In Technical Grappling it's fairly straight-forward: if you retain CP on the thrown foe, and you don't wind up in a position where you physically cannot be said to maintain those control points, you've still got him.

So if you grapple a guy, re-attack to gain an Arm Lock, and then use throws from locks to toss him, your foe remains grappled so long as you still have at least one CP. If you use your CP for the passive penalties and don't spend any motivating the throw (nor spending them to cause damage), you could theoretically do a throw and both start and end with a pretty tight grapple.

I would probably rule - based on my own experience with throws - that you can't maintain a lock through a throw. But that also might be because I've never had to go full Wookiee Beowulf on a foe, and if I were feeling ornery could do so, but have been trained out of tearing my partners' arms off.

The lock differs from a grapple in that usually the locked joint is considered effectively crippled - that is, it can't be used for much of anything. A grapple is just a firm, restrictive hold. Both can be used to injure - a lock based on skill (Arm Lock, defaulting to Wrestling or Judo), and a grapple based on ST (Wrench Limb).

If pushed, I'd probably ask for a (perhaps penalized) arm lock roll to maintain a lock through a throw, but say that no roll is required to maintain a grapple.

Of course, if you're just trying to get a foe onto the ground and not injure them in the process, Takedowns (Force Posture Change in TG) and Sweeps might be better models for that than throws.

Also note a throw is pretty explicit that it happens on the turn following a grapple or parry, and while writing TG, I timed with a stopwatch many varieties of Judo Throw, and found that in many cases, the foe would spend the equivalent of nearly a full turn in the air. That's cruel and unusual punishment as a game mechanic, though.

I will need to peruse the basic rule book and martial arts to answer with any sort of firm factual basis on those questions.
__________________
The Deadly Spring "...probably the most infamous Pyramid article of all time."-Jeffro's Car Wars Blog
Gaming Ballistic: Home of Gaming Ballistic, LLC and my blog.
DouglasCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 11:08 AM   #15
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Technical Grappling can someone help me figure it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I'll give you my answer
Thanks.

(Though that was an 11-minute delay instead of the previous 6. Ghostdancer must have been distracted. On the other hand, that means he disposed of Agent 005 in only five minutes, so I'd better not give him a hard time about it.)

Quote:
In Technical Grappling it's fairly straight-forward: if you retain CP on the thrown foe, and you don't wind up in a position where you physically cannot be said to maintain those control points, you've still got him.
I have in fact successfully grappled TG thanks to the Telegraphic Sale bonus announced a couple of days ago. But I haven't had time to read it and absorb it yet; still building my Comprehension Points. But just skimming, the text for TG's Judo Throw seems fairly clear, yes.

(Were I to submit editorial comments for the high-word-count version, I'd suggest one more sentence up front, such as "There are two types of Judo Throw, defensive and offensive", with the two successive paragraphs leading with a repeat of those terms, frex "You may attempt a defensive throw on your turn after a successful Judo parry" and "An offensive throw may be employed following a Grabbing Parry or offensive grapple", just to make it really obvious which rules apply to which type of throw.)

It seems like a pretty easy compatible back-port to the MA interpretation; defensive throws don't require or establish grapples, offensive ones retain them, granted reasonable relative positioning. Locks break on the assumption that you spent all your CP (that the simpler, earlier systems don't even track) on the damage and influencing the attack roll.

Is there a discussion somewhere of what posture and positions allow what sorts of grapples, or it that more of a common-sense, GM call, kind of thing? (I can imagine various disputes as to what you can actually hang onto behind your back, or if you're in pretzel shapes on the ground.) The fact that CP are tracked by hit location will be important here. That classic Judo grip on the gi lapel isn't something you can hold on to when the guy's on the ground (unless you want to follow him down).

From skimming TG, I can understand the OP better. To answer that "where do I start" question, I'd say: with Basic, and then see how Martial Arts expands on that structure. TG isn't actually a self-contained system independent of those, but builds on them. And TG's text just jumps right in on page 4 with the new additions, assuming (quite reasonably) that you already know the basics. If you don't already have some idea of how the Basic grappling and striking rules work, and aren't used to the Techniques in MA, it would be confusing. The "Recommended Books" section on page 3 pretty much says this, but that might be easy to overlook in the "yeah, yeah, intro, author bio" section. TG is excellent for added value per word count, but that PDF alone won't serve as a good starting point if you spent all your previous GURPS time just with swords and guns and are suddenly trying out a martial arts game.

A couple of old threads that might be useful, to add to the "see Doug's blog" comment:
Default Unarmed Combat Flowchart and Cards
[Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
Anaraxes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 11:28 AM   #16
Ghostdancer
Pyramid Potion Master
Ritual Path Magic Adept
 
Ghostdancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Portsmouth, VA, USA
Default Re: Technical Grappling can someone help me figure it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I have Ghostdancer. He's better than a script.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
He's an army of one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Your response came six minutes after my post. I saw it right before I set down my phone to doze off (it was 10 pm, after all); I was too tired and too shocked with the speed of the post to reply right away. If I figure it took a minute to read the message and write the reply, that leaves a mere five minutes for Ghostdancer to spot it and notify you. And he's an hour ahead of us, so he had to be tired.

It seems Ghostdancer himself is work a Perk.

Hehehe. I don't sleep. Never found a reason to waste half my life being horizontal when I could be doing something useful. :-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
If you worked with him in a professional capacity (as I have), if you gamed with him as a GM or player (as I have), or if you've relied on him to playtest your work (as most GURPS authors these days have), you'd realize he can only be costed as an Ally. Or maybe a Patron.
Aww! Come on, man. *blushes* Thanks. :-)
__________________
Christopher R. Rice
My Twitter
My w23 Stuff
My Blog

Latest Pyramid: Aethyric Space
Latest Book: Dungeon Fantasy RPG: Traps

Become a Patron!
Ghostdancer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 08:20 PM   #17
evileeyore
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: Technical Grappling can someone help me figure it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I'd love to take the original manuscript, revise it where needed, rewrite it where necessary, and repeat things where useful. So instead of all the tables ONLY in the back, I could put them in the main text where they're easily accessed, AND make a Quick Reference section in the back.
I'd pay for a TG Take 2.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
I'd love to see that simplified version in a Pyramid article.
I'd pay for a Pyramid (or small pamphlet version) of DF:TG.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GM Joe View Post
W
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
And he's an hour ahead of us...
ell, there you go. That explains it.
Yeah, I've always suspected he was a time traveler, seeing what people want then going back in time a writing it before they ever thought they'd need it...
__________________
Feel free to steal, borrow, fold, spindle, mutilate any rule, advantage, etc I come up with it.
evileeyore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 08:56 PM   #18
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: Technical Grappling can someone help me figure it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I'd pay for a TG Take 2.
Well, if you play That Other Game, you can get one . . . four days until the Kickstarter ends.

That link goes to my blog, the category for "Dungeon Grappling."
__________________
The Deadly Spring "...probably the most infamous Pyramid article of all time."-Jeffro's Car Wars Blog
Gaming Ballistic: Home of Gaming Ballistic, LLC and my blog.
DouglasCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2016, 02:29 AM   #19
evileeyore
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: Technical Grappling can someone help me figure it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Well, if you play That Other Game...
I don't. GURPS vastly superior.
__________________
Feel free to steal, borrow, fold, spindle, mutilate any rule, advantage, etc I come up with it.
evileeyore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2016, 02:46 AM   #20
mhd
 
mhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Land of the Beer, Home of the Dirndls
Default Re: Technical Grappling can someone help me figure it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Well, if you play That Other Game, you can get one . . . four days until the Kickstarter ends.
Retroverting that into GURPS was one of the main reasons why I backed the campaign, despite being quite disappointed by post-3E D&D. (It was a hot mess, but at least it was a hot mess with principles)
mhd is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
gurps, technical grapping, wrestling

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.