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Old 11-24-2016, 02:08 AM   #11
Shaun
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
No. Just...no. That's not even remotely balanced.
Yeah, I got that.
How would you suggest that I make it balanced?

Thanks.

Last edited by Shaun; 11-24-2016 at 02:20 AM.
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Old 11-24-2016, 02:40 AM   #12
Shaun
 
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Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Chiming in on the "No" camp.
For an easy Point Defense I would likely go with.....
ATR (Single Skill (Innate Attack), -20%; Only Attack Maneuvers, -50%; -70%) [30]
Altered Time Rate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
EDIT Saw the Halo post.
For that I might go with another option I have used which is Duplication (One form Only, -20%) and possibly add gadget if the Halo is an item.
Than build an Alternate Form. This will typically cost more points than the ATR method but lets you be more flexible. In this case you could give the Halo AF 360 Vision and possibly other traits.
We're trying to stay away from making it a gadget...
How would I give it 360 vision? Right now I'm leaning towards:
360 Vision (Panoptic 2 +60%, Single Skill (Halo) -20%; +40%) [35]. Does that sound right? The Halo isn't exactly a Skill. I guess I could call it Single Skill (Innate Attack). Is there a limitation which would work better (and preferably make it cheaper...)?
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Old 11-24-2016, 02:51 AM   #13
Shaun
 
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Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

Speaking of points...

Both the Innate Attack and the Extra Attack (or whichever route we determine is balanced) are divinely granted. I'm giving both Holy -10%. Incidentally, I've also added an extra Pact -5% vow.

Do these count as Holy Might Abilities which benefit from my Holiness for skill rolls?
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Old 11-24-2016, 03:08 AM   #14
Shaun
 
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Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Kromm's suggestion in the uFAQ for "Extra Defense" is to use Extra Arm:
since each additional hand gets you one additional parry or block. This build does not, of course, insist on there be an actual additional general-purpose hand on the creature.

I'd probably even let you take Extra Attack and Extra Defense as AAs if you could only use one of the pair per turn.
So far, this seems the most logical to me.
The Halo counts as a the weapon/shield mount to the innate attack. Why Force Extension though?
Then would I make this Reflexive +40%?

Extra Arm 1 (Force Extension, +50%; Shield Mount, -80%; Reflexive +40%) [11]
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Old 11-24-2016, 03:28 AM   #15
Shaun
 
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Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
If you bought the Reflexive enhancement for an active defense I think that it would active on top of normal combat (meaning that it would still work if doing an all-out attack, or that you would get 2 defenses if attacking normally, or 3 defenses if doing all-out defense) similar to how Passive Defense worked in 3e.

Just like Passive Defense, Reflexive makes it work even if you're not not awake. Unlike passive defense though, I don't think Reflexive necessarily works if you're unconscious.

There should be a way to limit this to only working while you're conscious though. Even in the example of Flash feeling a bullet touching his neck while watching a movie... he may not have been aware of the attack prior to feeling it touch him, but he was both awake and conscious at the time.

We need to distinguish between unconscious and asleep, basically. Something that wakes you up won't necessarily allow you to regain consciousness. Something which protects you when you're in a coma should be more valuable than something which protects you when you're merely asleep. Something which only protects you when you're awake (not unconscious AND not asleep) should be worth less than either of these.
That reminds me, would I have to get Multi-Strike on the Extra Attack to be able to use it both Reflexively and actively, or would Reflexive cover that? I'm leaning towards taking it.

To answer your question, since it's meant to represent a sort of divine intervention, I would think that it would have the potential to work while unconscious (assuming that I have the points to entreat my deity to act on my behalf).
Right now, I'll go with Reflexive wakes you upon activation, this is at -4 to my parry. What would you propose the points cost be for unconscious as well? Awake only is a moot point to me, since that's not what I'm looking for, but feel free to discuss the points value here as well.

Thanks.
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Old 11-24-2016, 03:58 AM   #16
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

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Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
That reminds me, would I have to get Multi-Strike on the Extra Attack to be able to use it both Reflexively and actively, or would Reflexive cover that? I'm leaning towards taking it.

To answer your question, since it's meant to represent a sort of divine intervention, I would think that it would have the potential to work while unconscious (assuming that I have the points to entreat my deity to act on my behalf).
Right now, I'll go with Reflexive wakes you upon activation, this is at -4 to my parry. What would you propose the points cost be for unconscious as well? Awake only is a moot point to me, since that's not what I'm looking for, but feel free to discuss the points value here as well.

Thanks.
I don't think Reflexive on an Extra Attack works at all. Extra Attack isn't a switchable or activated Advantage, it's passively always on. There's nothing to happen Reflexively.
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Old 11-24-2016, 06:12 AM   #17
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Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
That reminds me, would I have to get Multi-Strike on the Extra Attack to be able to use it both Reflexively and actively, or would Reflexive cover that? I'm leaning towards taking it.
Nope. No need to buy Extra Attack to use an IA to parry. You will have to buy up its Rate of Fire if it's a ranged attack, though.
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:12 AM   #18
Refplace
 
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Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

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Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
Altered Time Rate?



We're trying to stay away from making it a gadget...
How would I give it 360 vision? Right now I'm leaning towards:
360 Vision (Panoptic 2 +60%, Single Skill (Halo) -20%; +40%) [35]. Does that sound right? The Halo isn't exactly a Skill. I guess I could call it Single Skill (Innate Attack). Is there a limitation which would work better (and preferably make it cheaper...)?
Yes ATR is the common abbreviation for Altered Time Rate. It gives you an entire Extra Manuever each Turn.
OK skip the gadget than but add Divine so ATR is now 20 points with -80% in limitations.
Duplication is still probably better though if you want the 360 vision.
Duplication (Single Skill (specific form), -20%; Divine, -10%; -30%) [25] and Alternate Form (Divine, -10%; Once On, Stays On, +50%; +40%) [21]
So for 25+21=46 points you have a Halo as a duplicate you can turn on or off. It will take 10 seconds to form (the time for the AF to work is a feature, you can lower it with reduced Time or even add Reflexive to Duplication and AF if the Halo can turn itself on).
Than build the Halo as a racial template "Divine Halo" with as many points as you have in your racial template (0 points if your human) or add more if it needs it. The Once on, Stays on changes it from 90% to 100% though.
But lower ST and with disadvantages like Sessile, Portable and Pact you can lower its cost enough to probably work.

The ATR build will be cheaper and simpler but the AF build gives you more flexibility and works even if your main form is unconscious or helpless.
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Old 11-24-2016, 12:00 PM   #19
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Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

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Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
The Halo counts as a the weapon/shield mount to the innate attack. Why Force Extension though?
Force Extension means that there isn't actually an arm to grapple, or to attack directly in combat, or to be hit by a random hit location roll.
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Old 11-25-2016, 09:48 PM   #20
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Default Re: Independent Innate Attack

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Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
Do these count as Holy Might Abilities which benefit from my Holiness for skill rolls?
No. Holiness doesn't add to any skills, only Holy Ability rolls (like Summoning Allies, Detect Evil, True Faith, etc).
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