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Old 11-19-2016, 03:28 PM   #11
Flyndaran
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Default Re: [DF] Why do Wizards have 12 Dexterity?

DF characters don't really have dump stats like D&D classes usually do. They have super and merely good traits.
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Old 11-19-2016, 06:27 PM   #12
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Default Re: [DF] Why do Wizards have 12 Dexterity?

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Dungeon Fantasy templates aim to be pretty optimized because otherwise that one guy who gets permission to build off template makes other people look bad.
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even your most non-physical characters in a genre like DF will want at least a point in some combat skills (ideally one armed at an unarmed) and will want at least a point in Stealth. We want these ideally at decent levels, and high levels of DX makes that easier. We could, of course, lower our DX and spend more points in our combat skills and Stealth, but there's a questionable trade-off there, given the other factors we have floating around.
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DF characters don't really have dump stats like D&D classes usually do. They have super and merely good traits.
I guess my doubts lie somewhere here. I get the benefits: a wizard is a well rounded character with some flexibility in advancement. I just didn't expect that from DF. Knight and Swashbuckler are combat monsters with no real flexibility in brains, so I expected Wizards to be spellcasting monsters with no flexibility in brawn.
I guess I just need to put a bit more thought into balancing encounters.
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Old 11-19-2016, 06:39 PM   #13
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Default Re: [DF] Why do Wizards have 12 Dexterity?

Gurps writers tend to assume GMs, NPCs, and PCs will find ways to squeeze use out of minimal use traits and ruthlessly sensibly abuse weaknesses.
It is a change from most RPGs. Though DF is somewhat of a hybrid of the two styles, in my opinion.
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Old 11-19-2016, 07:04 PM   #14
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Default Re: [DF] Why do Wizards have 12 Dexterity?

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I guess my doubts lie somewhere here. I get the benefits: a wizard is a well rounded character with some flexibility in advancement. I just didn't expect that from DF. Knight and Swashbuckler are combat monsters with no real flexibility in brains, so I expected Wizards to be spellcasting monsters with no flexibility in brawn.
I guess I just need to put a bit more thought into balancing encounters.
If the wizard's spells fail him, he may need to fall back on some dodging and weapon skills, and old fashioned climbing and sneaking, just to survive. Fighters just don't have to deal with No Sword-Swinging Zones or not having enough FP to cast Punch Enemy In Face (or casting times, for that matter).

That wizards' usefulness is based entirely on their spell list is a "feature" of The Other Game, and I'm not upset it didn't get replicated here.
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Old 11-19-2016, 07:19 PM   #15
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Default Re: [DF] Why do Wizards have 12 Dexterity?

Swordsmen won't always have their swords. No matter how awesome you are at "niche", eventually you will be out of your element and need to use back up plans/abilities. Auto-losing in those situations rather than just making it hard to succeed isn't much fun, for me at least.
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Old 11-19-2016, 07:33 PM   #16
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Default Re: [DF] Why do Wizards have 12 Dexterity?

Some spells have DX 11, DX 12, or IIRC DX 13 as prerequisites. DF wizard wants to qualify for as many spell prerequisites as he can out the gate.

In addition to the already-mentioned usefulness of having decent DX for touch spells, Innate Attack, improved Basic Speed, Staff/Smallsword, etc.

If anything, it's weird that the Barbarian, Knight, and Swashbuckler have "only" IQ 10 out the gate, not that Wizards and Clerics have DX above 10.
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Old 11-19-2016, 10:06 PM   #17
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Default Re: [DF] Why do Wizards have 12 Dexterity?

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Fighters just don't have to deal with No Sword-Swinging Zones or not having enough FP to cast Punch Enemy In Face (or casting times, for that matter).
Actually, Knights do have to deal with No Sword-Swinging Zones. Passages low enough to require crawling in. Taverns with sword-checks (traditionally accompanied by a complimentary brawl). They may not have FP to attack concerns, but if all you have is a sword and you're fighting harpies, you can feel pretty lame.

IQ is also Perception, and being an idiot means you don't notice important things (or don't realize it was important, or forget about it when you get distracted, same difference). IQ is also Will, and as mentioned Knights can find themselves suddenly in Make Will Roll Or Suck fights. And, just like the Wizard can't guarentee a nice ablative wall of knights in front of him, the Knights can't always rely on having a thinking-brain Wizard on hand when the IQ needs rolling.

Knights are also Tactics and Leadership characters, which are IQ based.

Nobody is single stat.
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:48 AM   #18
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Default Re: [DF] Why do Wizards have 12 Dexterity?

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Nobody is single stat.
And thank goodness for that! This is one of the things I like about GURPS, every archetype benefits from every attribute (even if in different measure).
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:51 AM   #19
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Default Re: [DF] Why do Wizards have 12 Dexterity?

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Originally Posted by Gnomasz View Post
I guess my doubts lie somewhere here. I get the benefits: a wizard is a well rounded character with some flexibility in advancement. I just didn't expect that from DF. Knight and Swashbuckler are combat monsters with no real flexibility in brains, so I expected Wizards to be spellcasting monsters with no flexibility in brawn.
I guess I just need to put a bit more thought into balancing encounters.
Dividing activities into 'combat' vs. 'brains' and 'spellcasting' vs. 'brawn' is kind of a problem.

The Knight is probably the second-most devoted combatant, after the Swashbuckler, but they have some expertise in martial equipment (Armory, Connoisseur) and military command (Leadership, Strategy, Tactics) and a range of useful Background skills. They're not useless in a scene where they're not going to be rolling damage, though they certainly tend to a much smaller role in those cases relative to some other templates.

Wizards are flat-out terrible at brawn and manage to underperform the already very poor thief or druid in martial or muscular activities. DX 12 is the lowest of any template, tied with other magic users. DX 12, like a weapon skill of 14, is kind of a 'if you are not this capable of dealing with physical reality you don't belong in a dungeon' cut-off.
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IQ is also Perception, and being an idiot means you don't notice important things (or don't realize it was important, or forget about it when you get distracted, same difference). IQ is also Will, and as mentioned Knights can find themselves suddenly in Make Will Roll Or Suck fights. And, just like the Wizard can't guarentee a nice ablative wall of knights in front of him, the Knights can't always rely on having a thinking-brain Wizard on hand when the IQ needs rolling.

Knights are also Tactics and Leadership characters, which are IQ based.

Nobody is single stat.
Of course, Knights built to template don't have much ability to do anything about any of those points. They aren't offered bought-up IQ, senses, or resistance to mind-effecting whammies. (Other than fear checks.)
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Old 11-20-2016, 02:16 AM   #20
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Default Re: [DF] Why do Wizards have 12 Dexterity?

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That wizards' usefulness is based entirely on their spell list is a "feature" of The Other Game, and I'm not upset it didn't get replicated here.
"Feature" is right, as some believe that it's a serious balance problem, interestingly one the latest versions have at least tried to fix
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