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Old 11-18-2016, 04:24 AM   #21
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Default Re: Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), Feints, Setup Attacks, Rapid Strike

Right OK, so I guess my main point about maximising the number of attacks you can do is that you almost invariably trade off how well you can do them which has a knock on effect of how much benefit you can get from various attack option like set up attacks which will require further skill reduction.

This is why you're throwing lots of -2 set up or deceptive attacks. Now the issue with this is two fold:

1). a -2 set up or deceptive attack in going to net you a not very impressive -1 to defence (and the set up attack can be negated by the defender only getting 1 MoS on their defence)

2). Due to the above you relying on building up an effect from a lot of these successfully going off as planed to net you a big final effect. Only while the defender's defences will be dropping they only need to make one or two successful defences to spoil your plan here.

Dave the Defender above is going to be parrying and blocking at 13 each initially, so:

Against two attacks he can do parry & cross parry at 13 & 15. (or reverse that to 15 & 13 with cross parry* & block)

Against three attacks he can do parry, block & cross parry* at 13, 13 & 15 even if he doesn't retreat.

Against 4 attacks he can do parry (r), block, parry (l) & cross parry at 13, 13, 13 & 11


"Three armed Dave" is a pretty mean defending machine of course, not many get to cross parry and block all with +3DB!




*Although this is risky if you end up doing more attacks, as he can't parry any more and is relying on penalised block or a dodge. What order Dave blocks and parries in is important here, if he does parry & cross parry, he can still block if you do attack him again (of course if you end up doing two more attacks after he cross parries than he's likely down to dodge or a block at 8 by the end).







If you go the high skill route and less attacks, you can start leveraging some big effects. Especially if they work well with your WM, which is like having a free AoA(S) on every attack! Actually it's even better than a AoA(S) once you're doing more than one dice damage.


So for example if you had skill 25 you could feint, and a 25 vs. 14 Quick contest is likely to get you a net 11 successes! This underlines the point that skill 25 vs skill 14 in general is a huge advantage.

Skill 25 will give you a parry of 15 which means you're likely to survive the round and then you do a stab to Dave's eye** (-9) at Effective skill 16, with -11 to Dave's defence and even if your ST10 and using a thrusting Broadsword you'll be doing (1d+2)x4 damage which before we even get into weather or not Dave's still alive, it will be a HT-10 Knockdown test due to a major wound to the skull.


If you absolutely must do it in one round, do a AoA(Dbl). It adds risk, but that risk is mitigated by the very high chance of pulling it off and Dave's not on his feet to take advantage of you lack of defence.

But the best thing is high skill gives you flexibility with Skill 25 you can do this or you could spam lots of attack as per my post above. (and you get the better parry to cover you).

The higher parry doesn't just help you stay alive, but you can leverage it by Riposting out of it


**assuming he's a wearing helmet. If he isn't than you could go with a -2 deceptive attack to the skull for (1d+3-2DR) x4 making it a little less damaging but an even worse defence for Dave. Although since he's likely already at -11 to defend it's a bit redundant, but Dave could go with an AoD (parry +2), and a cross parry and a retreat to max out his defence at 18.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-18-2016 at 07:19 AM. Reason: 2nd parry on the same weapon/arm is -4 (not -3)
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Old 11-18-2016, 11:13 AM   #22
kflux
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: newbtown
Default Re: Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), Feints, Setup Attacks, Rapid Strike

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
So if Alex wants to make two attacks at 17, he'll need to spend 2 FP, not 1
Wow, thanks for clarifying that, that's a BIG misunderstanding on my part!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I've tried to stick to as close to your suggestions as possible, as you say there are more options than this, I'll have a think on the way to work of some!
Thanks for all your feedback, this is super helpful! I was missing the CP comparison between Extra Attack and pushing the skill way high, and that's a great point.

I will admit that I was imagining a skill cap of 20 (which in hindsight is probably foolish, given that I'm also envisioning a cinematic DF game!).

I was also thinking about situations where the skill point gap is lower, but I did not make that explicit, I just called out skill 18 and 14.

And really, your points are well-taken regardless. I was frankly underestimating the power of the big skill gap take on things, and at the same time as I had the FP cost dramatically wrong!

I also like the power of the Feint in some of the scenarios...

I'll be going back and re-reading your (and other folks') responses above several times today I'm sure. :)
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Old 11-19-2016, 02:02 AM   #23
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Default Re: Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), Feints, Setup Attacks, Rapid Strike

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Originally Posted by kflux View Post
...

Thanks for all your feedback, this is super helpful! I was missing the CP comparison between Extra Attack and pushing the skill way high, and that's a great point.

I will admit that I was imagining a skill cap of 20 (which in hindsight is probably foolish, given that I'm also envisioning a cinematic DF game!).

I was also thinking about situations where the skill point gap is lower, but I did not make that explicit, I just called out skill 18 and 14.

And really, your points are well-taken regardless. I was frankly underestimating the power of the big skill gap take on things, and at the same time as I had the FP cost dramatically wrong!

I also like the power of the Feint in some of the scenarios...

I'll be going back and re-reading your (and other folks') responses above several times today I'm sure. :)
No worries, let us know if you come up with any thing.

Also my examples were pretty simple ideas that can have more detail included. For instance I didn't really get into movement to improve position and get an attack from the side penalty to defences

Anyway

Cheers

TD

Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-19-2016 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 11-19-2016, 12:41 PM   #24
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Default Re: Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), Feints, Setup Attacks, Rapid Strike

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Originally Posted by kflux View Post
Wow, thanks for clarifying that, that's a BIG misunderstanding on my part!
I made the same error back when I was first playing with Rapid Strikes, so I tend to notice it in discussions. :-)
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