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Old 11-14-2016, 08:56 PM   #11
kflux
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
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Default Re: Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), Feints, Setup Attacks, Rapid Strike

I am changing my tune on my previous attempt at a summary of answers for Questions 4 and 5 shown below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kflux View Post
Question 4: No, the penalty only applies to the first of the two rapid strike attacks.
Question 5: No, the feint effectively nullifies the benefit of the setup attack, so that the third attack in the sequence of Extreme Rapid Strike only provides the defensive penalty from the Feint.
These summary answers do not feel right to me. My updated summary answers:

Question 4: Yes, the penalty applies to both of the two rapid strike attacks. Just like Question 1. There is no reason that the first Rapid Strike Setup Attack would "use up" the Feint penalty in this instance.
Question 5: Yes, the third attack has the penalties from both the setup attack and the feint (in other words, the penalties stack in this case). The "trick" here is that it is happening within an Extreme Rapid Strike.

Very open to counterargument, of course, but for the moment, this is what feels correct to me.
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Old 11-15-2016, 02:01 AM   #12
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), Feints, Setup Attacks, Rapid Strike

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Hmmm... if I can expect to survive multiple attacks, and I can expect my unpenalized Parry to work a good amount of the time, yeah, it's in my best interests to drop my defenses entirely for a turn to reset the penalty. Very good point!
The defender has another option as well, they could decide to do an All out Defence with either 2 rolls (and hope to get a great roll that negates the accumulated pen) or a +2 to their defence roll. Possibly adding a retreat in there as well.

This to me would be someone seeing what's happening and momentarily concentrating on breaking the rhythm their opponent has created.

Another option is to disengage with a move, forcing their opponent to either break their string of set up attacks and not follow, or try and cash in the bonus instead of losing it but on a move and attack.

(Since set up attacks can't lower effective skill below 10 and move and attack can't be above 9, you can't do a Move and attack set up attack, well unless it was a slam I guess).

Depending one comparative move's and reach the attacker might be able to get away with a AoA(L) to keep the set up chain broken

Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-15-2016 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 11-15-2016, 06:32 PM   #13
jason taylor
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), Feints, Setup Attacks, Rapid Strike

I assume using the inertia of a true edge attack to return with the false edge counts as "multiple attack?"
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Old 11-16-2016, 04:34 AM   #14
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), Feints, Setup Attacks, Rapid Strike

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
I assume using the inertia of a true edge attack to return with the false edge counts as "multiple attack?"
Without knowing the precise details It certainly could be I guess, it's going to depend on how quickly you want to do it.

Out of interest have you got a clip of what your describing though, so I can see how inertia is maintained for the return?
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Old 11-16-2016, 07:57 PM   #15
kflux
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), Feints, Setup Attacks, Rapid Strike

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Another option is to disengage with a move
This is one of the reasons why I am trying to understand Extra Attack with Feints, Setup Attacks, and Rapid Strike - it seems to me that applying these options together in various ways can lead to powerful combat turns that have an increased chance of actually hitting and doing damage, before the defender can take a turn and run away...
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Old 11-16-2016, 08:18 PM   #16
McAllister
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), Feints, Setup Attacks, Rapid Strike

Quote:
Originally Posted by kflux View Post
This is one of the reasons why I am trying to understand Extra Attack with Feints, Setup Attacks, and Rapid Strike - it seems to me that applying these options together in various ways can lead to powerful combat turns that have an increased chance of actually hitting and doing damage, before the defender can take a turn and run away...
Well, give me some numbers for what the hypothetical combatants look like, and I'll do some really rough number parsing to see if it's better odds than deceptive attacks.
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Old 11-17-2016, 01:03 AM   #17
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), Feints, Setup Attacks, Rapid Strike

Quote:
Originally Posted by kflux View Post
This is one of the reasons why I am trying to understand Extra Attack with Feints, Setup Attacks, and Rapid Strike - it seems to me that applying these options together in various ways can lead to powerful combat turns that have an increased chance of actually hitting and doing damage, before the defender can take a turn and run away...
They are in theory, you're basically leveraging high skill against penalties to hit to gain speed of hitting. These various additional options can increase the effect.

Ultimately there are several ways in GURPS for the highly skilled to leverage their skill beyond just be likely to hit with basic skill.

As McAllister points out, what's going to be the most efficient is going to be a factor of each's combatants stats.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-17-2016 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 11-17-2016, 07:56 PM   #18
kflux
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), Feints, Setup Attacks, Rapid Strike

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Well, give me some numbers for what the hypothetical combatants look like, and I'll do some really rough number parsing to see if it's better odds than deceptive attacks.
Alex the Attacker:
Human; Broadsword Skill: 18; Extra Attack (Multi-strike), Weapon Master (Broadsword), Move 6

Dave the Defender:
Humanoid; 3 Arms (2 Broadswords, 1 Large Shield); Ambidexterity (so all arms equal); Broadsword Skill: 14 (for both sword arms) but does NOT have Dual Weapon Attack; Shield Skill: 14; Move 6

I'm assuming here that Dave having two ready broadswords means he gets two parries before he incurs a parry penalty. If that is wrong, my bad.

If Alex spends 1 FP on Flurry of Blows he's at skill 17 for both Rapid Strike attacks.
If Alex spends 1 FP on Flurry of Blows he’s at skill 15 for Extreme Rapid Strike (3 attacks).

I’m not sure how your parsing works, but I’m fascinated to learn what you find. Not sure what sequences to compare. Perhaps Alex burns 1 FP on Flurry of Blows and tries things like:

1) Deceptive Attack(-4) + [Deceptive Attack(-4) + Deceptive Attack(-4)]
(so this is roll against 14, then 13, then 13; Dave can Parry, Parry, then Block or Dodge)

2) Feint + [Setup Attack (-4) + Deceptive Attack (-2)]
(if Feint is successful, the penalty applies to both Setup and Deceptive, but Deceptive also gets Setup penalty; Dave gets 2 parries, but the second parry could have a big penalty!)

3) Feint + [Setup Attack (-2) + Setup Attack (-2) + Deceptive Attack (-2)]
(final deceptive attack can only get penalty from feint and previous setup attack; the first setup attack penalty is used up during the second setup attack (unless we’re stacking setups, which I was assuming we’d avoid on first pass)
4) Setup Attack (-4) + [Setup Attack (-2) + Setup Attack (-2) + Deceptive Attack (-2)]
(this gives 4 attacks instead of 3, but this is obviously better with stacking…)

I’m new to this so I have probably missed better sequences, or messed up the math on the stats… :)

Thanks!
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Old 11-17-2016, 11:43 PM   #19
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), Feints, Setup Attacks, Rapid Strike

Quote:
Originally Posted by kflux View Post
If Alex spends 1 FP on Flurry of Blows he's at skill 17 for both Rapid Strike attacks.
If Alex spends 1 FP on Flurry of Blows he’s at skill 15 for Extreme Rapid Strike (3 attacks).
One very important thing about Flurry of Blows is that you need to spend 1 FP per attack with a reduced Rapid Strike penalty. So if Alex wants to make two attacks at 17, he'll need to spend 2 FP, not 1, and if he wants to do the 3-attack routine, he's burning 3 FP. That can get expensive quite quickly.
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Old 11-18-2016, 01:11 AM   #20
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Extra Attack (Multi-Strike), Feints, Setup Attacks, Rapid Strike

Quote:
Originally Posted by kflux View Post
Alex the Attacker:
Human; Broadsword Skill: 18; Extra Attack (Multi-strike), Weapon Master (Broadsword), Move 6...
Leaving aside the good point about flurry of blows which Kelly Pedersen has always raised.

That extra attack with multi strike cost 30 points*. But for 30 points you could buy your broadsword skill up by another 7 levels and have 2 points left over for a point in a hard technique or a couple of perks etc, etc (or what ever).

And the thing is not only is that +7 to hit, it helps with everything else. For example since you have weapon master that already halves rapid strike penalties it's going to be more efficient to just do a 3 attack rapid strike (-6,-6 & -6 with the Weapon master bonus) with that extra +7 of skill, if you really want a lot of attacks.


*although you could also get the single skill limitation (broadsword) that would bring the cost back down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kflux View Post

1) Deceptive Attack(-4) + [Deceptive Attack(-4) + Deceptive Attack(-4)]
(so this is roll against 14, then 13, then 13; Dave can Parry, Parry, then Block or Dodge)

2) Feint + [Setup Attack (-4) + Deceptive Attack (-2)]
(if Feint is successful, the penalty applies to both Setup and Deceptive, but Deceptive also gets Setup penalty; Dave gets 2 parries, but the second parry could have a big penalty!)

So in this instance you could do both of these but with a bonus.
Before the deductions for deceptive and set up attacks, yours is: 18, (17 & 17) if you do the flurry of blows on the rapid strike

Doing a basic 3x rapid strike with WM and Skill 25 it would be 19, 19 & 19


Quote:
Originally Posted by kflux View Post
3) Feint + [Setup Attack (-2) + Setup Attack (-2) + Deceptive Attack (-2)]
(final deceptive attack can only get penalty from feint and previous setup attack; the first setup attack penalty is used up during the second setup attack (unless we’re stacking setups, which I was assuming we’d avoid on first pass)
4) Setup Attack (-4) + [Setup Attack (-2) + Setup Attack (-2) + Deceptive Attack (-2)]
(this gives 4 attacks instead of 3, but this is obviously better with stacking…)

Now with these two options with four attacks. Since you can't use extra attacks to make two rapid strikes a turn, that is 1 attack and then 1 3x rapid strike with flurry of blows, If so leaving aside that's 3FP, your basic skill will be:

18, (15, 15 & 15) before you start applying set up penalties etc.

Again if you go the high skill route instead of extra attack it would be 16, 16, 16 & 16 if you just did a 4x rapid strike just using the WM bonus, or if you wanted to spend the 4FP to make that a flurry of blows 19, 19, 19 & 19 (but you better take him out if you do!)

Of the the two I'd favour the 1st as you say the feint stacks with all the following 3 attacks so is great for not only ensuring the set up's hit as attacks in their own right, but also increases the chances of them adding their bonus. Also if your GM is using the Lather, Rinse, Repeat rules* then a small set up like that (-2) might start getting more than compensated by the defensive bonus.


*and if they are allowing set ups to stack and carry forward I'd recommend they do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kflux View Post
I’m new to this so I have probably missed better sequences, or messed up the math on the stats… :)

Thanks!
No worries (i'm also not 100% on the rapid strikes stuff as it doesn't come up very often at my table so some of the above might be wrong!)

EDIT: I've tried to stick to as close to your suggestions as possible, as you say there are more options than this, I'll have a think on the way to work of some!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-18-2016 at 06:43 AM.
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