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Old 10-13-2016, 04:17 AM   #21
Icelander
 
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Default Re: Artillery through the Ages:

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym View Post
http://rnzaa.org.nz/sites/all/files/...the%20Ages.pdf

. . . is a good easy-read primer on the subject; includes descriptions of guns (including odd names such as saker & minion) with bore diameters & lengths of barrels.

Should allow you to design same (or close to it) with GURPS Vehicles 3rd or its successor.
Thanks.

Unfortunately, we don't have a 4e successor to the weapon design parts of Vehicles (nor do we have a 4e GURPS Vehicles). I don't know how close the 3e system is to reality or to 4e GURPS stats.
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Old 10-13-2016, 02:33 PM   #22
hal
 
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Default Re: TL4 to TL5 Cannons and Carronades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cernig View Post
Icelander, you may find this useful: http://arc.id.au/CannonBallistics.html
I could kick your butt for not telling me about this too ya know. Then I'd have to buy you a dinner or something to reward you for showing that web page.

THANK YOU.


:)

;)

Too bad there isn't an icon for a happy dance thingie... If they had it, I'd be using it.

Thanks Cernig!
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Old 10-13-2016, 02:54 PM   #23
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Default Re: Artillery through the Ages:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Thanks.

Unfortunately, we don't have a 4e successor to the weapon design parts of Vehicles (nor do we have a 4e GURPS Vehicles). I don't know how close the 3e system is to reality or to 4e GURPS stats.
I've always thought that the whole is equal to the sum of its parts. The disconnect between the hitpoints calculated for a wall of oak versus a ship of oak alone shows that there is a problem with how 4E does things. Having a ball hit the one side of a hull, push through, and then hit a cannon's carriage, and come to a rest inside the other side of the hull should indicate that the stuff INSIDE the ship but not connected TO it, also has a part to play in the grand scheme of things. BEAT TO QUARTERS miniatures rules goes about it simply enough:

When damage accumulates to a given level, you detail a gun going silent. Maybe damaged, maybe crew not sufficient to handle it, or what have you, but its ability to fight is degraded. Ditto with sail damage. You might do sufficient damage to hit a mainsail on the mast, and bring the entire mast down, or you might do sufficient damage that the topgallants are dysfunctional.

I created a basic table of Sail speeds based upon sail state (how many sails are up) and the wind angle of attack - but recent reading of sailing skills indicates to me that sometimes ALL sails hoisted actually slows down the ship a little because the foresails on the foremost mast, causes the bow of the ship to dig deeper into the water as it moves forward, increasing drag and slowing the ship down.

HEART OF OAK is still available not only as a PDF, but also as an actual brand new book. At less than $10 for Heart of Oak (the book) or $18 for the trilogy (Heart of Oak, Tradition of Victory, and Promotions and Prizes). If nothing else, I would suggest making the purchase of the PRIVATEERS AND GENTLEMEN books for your library to help with creating your own method of representing hulls and damage. The ship movement rules are worth using. Having some extra background might be helpful as well.

In all, the reason I liked BEAT TO QUARTERS by Command Decision is that each gun was accounted for. A 32 lbr cannon would inflict 32 points of damage. The game uses a salvo system where you roll percentiles, multiply that by the salvo, with modifiers to the roll due to range etc, and that is how many hits score. It can easily be adopted to GURPS where you roll against the gunner's skill, and if procuring a hit - do damage.

Or, you can simply do a narrative in the tradition of Patrick Obrian and simply narrate the battle with little imput by the player characters in any real meaningful way. Either they do a critical thing and influence the battle, or they don't.

Case in point: Player characters fire their cannon three times and secure three hits. Based on the rules for the miniatures game, that is sufficient to secure a gun damage result. I'd be able to say "The first two shots don't seem to produce much in the way of results, but that third shot seems to have silenced the 64 lbr Carronade that's been dealing devastating damage to your ship. Your fellow gun crew raise a lusty cheer at your successful shot". Too bad your hearing is filled with the ringing of cannon shot after cannon shot after cannon shot, the eyes watering with cordite clouds drifting about, your sweat pouring down your body, and your voice hoarse from the shouting as you fight your enemy."

GURPS MASS COMBAT doesn't really have the feel. GURPS rules for vehicles as written doesn't even come close to that. Knowing that the British Navy had blood bounties on men killed in an enemy ship is something you don't find in many books. Knowing that it could take YEARS before any of your prize money finds its way to your hands, is sobering. Having to deal with half pay because your character was beached due to a lack of ships to man and the nations being at peace is something the GM can throw at his players. Best of all, imagine a Naval officer in his Royal Majesty's Navy, being beached, and offered a privateering commission - doing more as a privateer than as a naval officer, and finding that none of what he did matters to the navy. He wasn't technically a Royal Navy officer at the time he did his deeds worthy of song!

Granted, this doesn't entirely help with age of sail piracy a century earlier, but for me, getting your hands on a copy of ICE PIRATES! is worth the effort. RUN OUT YOUR GUNS (also by ICE might be better for your desires) - all worth adapting for use with GURPS SWASHBUCKLERS. The Maps in RUN OUT YOUR GUNS (if you can ever score a copy on eBay) is enough to make you salivate. *sigh*

Ah well, I'm not helping with this post, so I'll behave and bring my post to a close...
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Old 10-14-2016, 07:10 AM   #24
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Default Re: Artillery through the Ages:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
I've always thought that the whole is equal to the sum of its parts.
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. Even in a purely Age of Sail naval combat game, there exists the possibility of freakishly lucky impacts which cause mobility kills (a vital stay severed while tacking, dismasting, lost rudder, etc.) or even complete destruction (through causing a fire or an onboard explosion) out of all proportion to the ability of the shot to destroy the entire hull of the ship.

In a generic and universal game, such possibilities are even wider. Completely battering every part of an enemy ship to pieces with relatively inaccurate cannon is far from the only option for a party of adventurers with supernatural gifts and magical powers.

On the other hand, I'd prefer to handle such things with more extensive hit location tables for the vehicles in question, not deeply questionable DR and HP scores.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
The disconnect between the hitpoints calculated for a wall of oak versus a ship of oak alone shows that there is a problem with how 4E does things.
Certainly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
I created a basic table of Sail speeds based upon sail state (how many sails are up) and the wind angle of attack - but recent reading of sailing skills indicates to me that sometimes ALL sails hoisted actually slows down the ship a little because the foresails on the foremost mast, causes the bow of the ship to dig deeper into the water as it moves forward, increasing drag and slowing the ship down.
As I don't have exclusively sailing ships of similar designs and rigging*, I think I prefer to abstract the exact arrangments of sails at each time into the results of a Shiphandling skill check of the captain and Seamanship of the crew.

The Wind spell from GURPS Magic is a favourite among the wizards serving with the PCs' fleet and that usually ensures favourable winds.

*Not only are there galleys, xebecs, caravels, galleons, frigates, brigs, schooners, catamarans, single-masted cargo vessels and various boats, there are also swimming sea-monsters and water elementals, flying giant birds, dragons, griffons, hippogriffs, wyverns and wizards with magical wings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
HEART OF OAK is still available not only as a PDF, but also as an actual brand new book. At less than $10 for Heart of Oak (the book) or $18 for the trilogy (Heart of Oak, Tradition of Victory, and Promotions and Prizes). If nothing else, I would suggest making the purchase of the PRIVATEERS AND GENTLEMEN books for your library to help with creating your own method of representing hulls and damage. The ship movement rules are worth using. Having some extra background might be helpful as well.
I will consider it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
In all, the reason I liked BEAT TO QUARTERS by Command Decision is that each gun was accounted for. A 32 lbr cannon would inflict 32 points of damage. The game uses a salvo system where you roll percentiles, multiply that by the salvo, with modifiers to the roll due to range etc, and that is how many hits score. It can easily be adopted to GURPS where you roll against the gunner's skill, and if procuring a hit - do damage.
How were carronades handled? What was their damage compared to guns of the same caliber?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Or, you can simply do a narrative in the tradition of Patrick Obrian and simply narrate the battle with little imput by the player characters in any real meaningful way. Either they do a critical thing and influence the battle, or they don't.
The campaign has been ongoing since the publication of GURPS 4e. It started with two cousins, a Fafhrd-like young warrior from a moorland clan and a Grey Mouser -esque con man from a mercantile city, joining the crew of a small privateer vessel on the Inner Sea. They have since been joined by more PCs, some lost on the way, but others bringing new allies. Points earned in play are 1,250+ and that's not even accounting for Wealth, Status, Reputation, Allies and Contacts (or Enemies) gained through in-game actions.

The PCs are now fantastically rich, powerful and supernaturally awesome. They own a fleet of some two dozen ships and control some sixty more through allegiances and contracts. As the owners of an East India Company -esque merchant house, mercenary army and privateer fleet, they have self-granted titles such as Viceroy, Admiral, General or Air Commodore* that even hostile nation-states have to pay at least lip service to.

Also, with their huge collection of magical gear collected over some ten years of gaming, they are personally powerful enough to face dragons the size of a city bus in mortal combat and prevail. One of them can hurl grown men hundreds of feet, some can fly like eagles or swim like sharks, one can shoot magical exploding or armour-piercing arrows accurately out to a mile or more with proper preparation and one owns a set of dragonbone firearms that can send magical golden bullets out to 2,000 yds with enough accuracy to hit a man in the head nine times out of ten.

If they are personally involved in a naval battle, their actions will probably determine the outcome.

*Abadas 'I Just Get These Headaches' has established a force of flying wizards and apprentices. He also controls a wing of giant albatrosses with goblin-like riders and two flying cavalry companies, one of young girls on pegasi and one of cataphracts on hippogriffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
GURPS MASS COMBAT doesn't really have the feel. GURPS rules for vehicles as written doesn't even come close to that.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Knowing that the British Navy had blood bounties on men killed in an enemy ship is something you don't find in many books. Knowing that it could take YEARS before any of your prize money finds its way to your hands, is sobering.
Was head money indeed paid for those enemy sailors killed during an action, not just the ones captured?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Having to deal with half pay because your character was beached due to a lack of ships to man and the nations being at peace is something the GM can throw at his players. Best of all, imagine a Naval officer in his Royal Majesty's Navy, being beached, and offered a privateering commission - doing more as a privateer than as a naval officer, and finding that none of what he did matters to the navy. He wasn't technically a Royal Navy officer at the time he did his deeds worthy of song!
Amusingly, the PCs have managed to recruit professional captains, officers and seamen to their private navy because almost the entire navy of the city-state where they live was burned in port during a recent conflict.

They've agreed to donate an advanced galleon to the rebuilding navy and to serve as a naval militia until the rebuilding is completed, in exchange for officers with commissions from the city state being able to serve under their banners without hindrance while they do not have commands.

One such captain has grown immensely rich in their service, from the prize money of many captured ships, and several of his officers have become quite well off. This helped them a lot when they sought more experienced captains and officers to crew captured and new-build vessels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Granted, this doesn't entirely help with age of sail piracy a century earlier, but for me, getting your hands on a copy of ICE PIRATES! is worth the effort. RUN OUT YOUR GUNS (also by ICE might be better for your desires) - all worth adapting for use with GURPS SWASHBUCKLERS. The Maps in RUN OUT YOUR GUNS (if you can ever score a copy on eBay) is enough to make you salivate. *sigh*
I don't want to mess with eBay or anything that requires dealing with Customs and the post office. PDF only, for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Ah well, I'm not helping with this post, so I'll behave and bring my post to a close...
You've certainly helped.
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Old 10-14-2016, 07:23 PM   #25
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Default Re: TL4 to TL5 Cannons and Carronades

Beat to Quarters (Command Perspective) used a relatively simple approach:

Weight of the cannon ball was the damage inflicted on a hull. A ship's hull in tonnage doubled, was its "Hit points" as it were. Regardless of whether carronade or naval gun, the damage was the weight of the ball. Where carronades differed from long guns was the range and the crew required to handle the gun. If you had half the required crew to handle the guns, the reload times were doubled. If you had half the sailing crew required, your turning times were doubled.

The author of the rules in AGE OF SAIL mailing list later confessed that the casualties from the game were about double what they should have been, but overall, the game played decently. Finding a copy today is nigh impossible. Keeping an eye open might score you a copy or two somewhere down the line. Doing a saved search for the game on ebay might eventually reward you with a copy showing up eventually.


Critical hits that resulted in an entire mast falling, or two masts falling are part and parcel of both BEAT TO QUARTERS and HEART OF OAK. With HEART OF OAK, if you use too much canvas under too heavy a wind force, you risk your mask falling down as it is. What is missing is the fact that historically, the spars for the topgallants and lower, often split because they were made of less "stern" stuff (ie not oak or some of the major hard woods). Ships had to put into port looking for replacement spars, and not being able to find them when the spar parts were not available.

VICTORY BY ANY MEANS is a sort of strategic style game. How well it would mesh with GURPS MAGIC or such, I couldn't say. Truth be told, VBAM is not my cup of tea and I didn't much like it, but others might find it worth the while.

So my advice? Seriously try getting your hands on HOA (Heart of Oak). Hull hit points equals the number of guns the ships carry. Every 50 lbs of throw weight equals one Long Gun. I forget the ratio of throw weight for carronades in the game, but it is s discernible ratio of real life data. At low wind speeds, the wind may "gust" for some ships but not for others. At a steady wind, the wind can stay at that level or it might freshen, or die out. Every 100 turns I think (forgetful in my old age and not having played in a long while!), you roll against the current barometer settings to see if the weather changes strength, or direction or both. There are wind tables for most of the lattitudes on earth.

Could you adapt GURPS to it? Sure can. Could you run a game solely using the ship combat rules and GURPS CHARACTER rules? Yup. I suggested to the company the idea of having a web page devoted to the rules set and GURPS, but they got sticky about it and I backed off. So, what you do with your rules in the privacy of your home is just fine. Just don't put up a web page apparently. I'd have love to have run a GURPS CAMPAIGN using HEART OF OAK rules and GURPS. Hell, if I could only figure out how to get deck plans for the various ships, I Could even try running something over Fantasy Grounds. I'm just not all that good with maps I'm afraid. :(
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Old 10-15-2016, 06:50 PM   #26
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Default Carriage Weight, Role and TL

I understand from what sources I can find that Royal Navy truck carriages for long guns in the late 18th century and early 19th century were about 20% of the weight of the gun.* This translates into just over 6 cwt to 13 cwt (716-1,456 lbs.) weight of naval truck carriages for guns ranging from a medium 12-lb to a short 42-lb. The sliding carriages used by carronades were about half the weight of the carronade**, except for the 68-lb carronade, which had a carriage weighing only 28% of the carronade itself.

Field artillery carriages were far heavier, proportionally. Even the famously light 'Grasshopper' 3-lb piece required a carriage of around 300 lbs., which is around 150% of the weight of the cannon itself. Field artillery 6-lb cannon usually required a carriage weighing around 900-1,200 lbs., which is from 101% to 180% of the weight of the piece itself. Heavier field artillery required carriages of 0-5-1 ton in weight, usually weighing only slightly more to slightly less than the cannons themselves (72% to 125%).*** Though not universal, there is a fairly obvious trend toward lighter carriages from the 1770s to 1815 and the carriages that were only 100% or less of gun weight nearly all date to the latter part of the Napoleonic wars.

Obviously, these are all solidly TL5 carriages, made after Gribeauval's artillery design revolution in France during the 1760s. Does anyone have a good idea of what advancements in design or manufacturing are required before a TL4 industrial base can build TL5 carriages?

Also, what would be a fair Cost for these carriages, if someone were making them with TL4 technology?****

It's obvious that they would be much more expensive than the TL4 carriages listed in Low-Tech, but how much more expensive? Three times more expensive? Four times? Five times? Ten times? Twenty times?

*I would give limited credence to the bare statement in a text that this was so, but I was able to find sources for the actual weights for the carriages for the 12-lb, 24-lb, 32-lb and 42-lb aboard the HMS Victory and they are all 20% or less of the gun weight.
**53% for the 12-lb, 45% for the 18-lb, 24-lb and 32-lb.
***Discussion of field guns and their carriages, including some weight figures, can usually be found in works on Napoleon's and Wellington's campaigns, as well as in treatments on the American Revolutionary War. Pieces from these wars, on replica carriages, can often be seen in museums.
****No factories, hand-crafting all metal screws, axles and such, etc.
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Last edited by Icelander; 10-15-2016 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 10-18-2016, 03:15 PM   #27
hal
 
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Default Re: TL4 to TL5 Cannons and Carronades

Sourcebook: HMS VICTORY 1765-1812 (First rate ship of the line) Owner's Workshop Manual (Haynes)

Page 84:

Medium 12-Pounder
Length 8'6"
Caliber: 22.063
Weight of Gun: 31 cwt 2qtr 0 lb
Weight of Gun (lb): 3528 lb
Weight of Carriage: 6 cwt 1qtr 6lb
Total weight of piece and carriage: 4,234 lb
Proportional weight of shot to gun: 294
Weight of shot: 12lb
Shot diameter: 4.40 in
Bore diameter of gun: 4.64 in
Powder charge standard weight: 4lb
Range Maximum at 6 degrees: 1,320 yd
Range point blank (Gun level): 375 yd
No. of gun's crew - firing single firing one broadside of ship only: 10
No. of gun's crew - firing both broadsides of ship simultaneously: 05
Total forces exerted upon breaching rope and ship's side when gun fired: 10 tons
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Old 10-18-2016, 03:20 PM   #28
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Default Re: TL4 to TL5 Cannons and Carronades

short 18-pounder carronade
Length: 2ft 4in
Calibre: 5.447
Weight of gun: 38cwt 1 qtr 25lb
Weight of gun (lb): 949lb
Weight of shot: 18lb
Shot diameter: 5.04in
bore diameter of gun: 5.16in
Standard powder charge weight at 1/12: 1lb 8oz
lowest powder charge weight at 1/16: 1lb 2oz
Highest powder charge weight at 1/8: 2lb 4oz
range maximum at 5 degrees using a 2 lb charge: 1,000 yd
Range point blank (gun level) using a 2 lb charge: 270 yd
No of gun's crew: 5
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Old 10-18-2016, 03:37 PM   #29
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Default Re: TL4 to TL5 Cannons and Carronades

Quoted from page 85:

The large 32 pounder guns are very powerful. Using a full charge of about 11lb (5kg) of gunpowder, i.e., 1/3 the weight of the shot being fired, the muzzle velocity (MV) of these guns firing a single 32 lb (14.4kg) round shot is between 1500ft and 1,600ft per second (487 m/sec). Because these velocities equate to between 1,023mph and 1,091mph (between 1646m/h and 1,755km/h), consequently the projectiles fired from smooth-bored muzzle-loading guns are supersonic.

It goes on to explain that the 32 lb shot could, at those velocities, pass through 3 feet of oak (.9 meters) or 6 feet of pine. Note that this is at POINT BLANK range, not extended.

Elsewhere regarding damage from Carronades and Long guns page 86 thru 87

In comparison to the standard long guns, the carronades have a considerably lower MV. However, firing a proportionately heavier shot at a lower velocity, these guns have the advantage of creating greater damage at short range as the shot will 'churn' rather than punch its way through timber. Attempting to effect a watertight hull repair to this kind of damage is far more difficult than stopping up a clean hole produced by the standard guns.

This is one of the most enjoyable books in my collection of books where it comes to Age of Sail (Napoleon and Nelson) era ships. I cannot recommend enough this particular book, despite the fact that it is only 178 pages (seemingly a thin book!).

ISBN: 978 0 85733 085 7

Website: www.haynes.co.uk

The information contained within this book is staggering in the kind of detail that you get from it - all pertaining to the HMS VICTORY with plenty of pictures and illustrations. Need the diameter of the breeching rope for a 32 pounder cannon? 7" thick and 28ft 6in in length

Want a deck schematic? Look on page 77. Want stats on the ship's boats? Yup, it has it. :)

I gave you a taste of what was in the book by showing you the carronade and one of the guns. There are more - right down to the carriage weights and everything else.
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