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Old 09-23-2016, 01:08 PM   #11
corwyn
 
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Default Re: I need a touch of help with clarity of magic

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Originally Posted by Gef View Post
Casting a spell takes your whole turn. You then roll for its success at the beginning of your next turn. This is not your action for turn 2, just the resolution of your action from turn 1. The rEason for the delated resolution iS that somebody cold attack aND spoil your concentration. You may then proceed with your action for turn 2, which could be attacking with the flame jet you cast on turn 1 if it was successful, or it could be aiming a fireball.
Sorry but you and DJ2 are both wrong. It worked that way in 3e but was changed for 4e.
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Originally Posted by GURPS Magic
"At the end of the last second of concentration, make a success roll for the spell....Its effects take place immediately." M7
This is under general spellcasting and applies to all spells except where noted. Missile spells work the same way except they just create a missile in your hand so you have to wait for your next turn to throw it.

I don't see an exception for Breathe Fire or Flame Jet so I've always allowed them to attack immediately.
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Old 09-23-2016, 03:59 PM   #12
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Default Re: I need a touch of help with clarity of magic

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Originally Posted by corwyn View Post
Sorry but you and DJ2 are both wrong. It worked that way in 3e but was changed for 4e.

This is under general spellcasting and applies to all spells except where noted. Missile spells work the same way except they just create a missile in your hand so you have to wait for your next turn to throw it.

I don't see an exception for Breathe Fire or Flame Jet so I've always allowed them to attack immediately.
They are correct.
Remember Turns begin and end with you.
So cast on Turn 1 and roll for success at the END of Your Turn, at which point it is the beginning of your new Turn. Everyone else goes in between that time, otherwise they could only interrupt your casting if they had done a Wait maneuver.
This can also be seen for Defense penalties with various combat maneuvers.
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Old 09-23-2016, 05:28 PM   #13
corwyn
 
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Default Re: I need a touch of help with clarity of magic

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
They are correct.
Remember Turns begin and end with you.
So cast on Turn 1 and roll for success at the END of Your Turn, at which point it is the beginning of your new Turn. Everyone else goes in between that time, otherwise they could only interrupt your casting if they had done a Wait maneuver.
Which is exactly what the rules say:

"Whether you succeed or fail, your turn ends as soon as you roll the dice. No
one can interrupt a one-second spell unless he took the Wait maneuver on
his own turn before the caster began concentrating."

Therefore the concentration maneuver, die roll, and effect all take place before he passes to the next player's turn.

If that was not the case, why the change in text from 3e where the die roll and effect were explicitly made at the beginning of his next turn?
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Old 09-23-2016, 06:46 PM   #14
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Default Re: I need a touch of help with clarity of magic

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Originally Posted by corwyn View Post
"
Therefore the concentration maneuver, die roll, and effect all take place before he passes to the next player's turn.
However, you can not use an Innate Attack(Jet) Skill during a Concentrate maneuver and certainly not the same one you're using on the Spell.

Now with Jet Spells (which are maintainable) after you cast you can blaze away every Turn. Not so with Breath Spells of course. The " Touch" spells also have this "Concentrate->Attack, repeat" pattern. They can't be Maintained either.

Regular Spells that have no attack roll but proceed directly to the Resistance Roll can be cast and take effect in one Turn (if the Spell can be cast that fast).
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Old 09-23-2016, 07:08 PM   #15
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Default Re: I need a touch of help with clarity of magic

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Cool idea but the penalty is pretty steep. I like the idea of making that option free (as a magic version of Rapid Strike) with Spellslinger cutting the penalty in half.
I'm theoretically ok with that - I think I'd charge a perk per spell personally. But I had to build on the existing system. That means I've got to work with what's there and by RAW you can't do that. :-)

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Looks like another item to add to my list...
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Originally Posted by corwyn View Post
Breathe Fire doesn't work like that, does it? It's a regular spell with a duration of 1 second, can't be maintained. And Flame Jet should work the same since BF says "similar to Flame Jet except...".

Well, at least Jet spells will be clarified/fixed in the DFRPG if the OP can wait 8 months.
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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
What's unclear? The spells start in the next second before any other actions, but you attack with them physically on your next action if that's necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by corwyn View Post
Sorry but you and DJ2 are both wrong. It worked that way in 3e but was changed for 4e.

This is under general spellcasting and applies to all spells except where noted. Missile spells work the same way except they just create a missile in your hand so you have to wait for your next turn to throw it.

I don't see an exception for Breathe Fire or Flame Jet so I've always allowed them to attack immediately.
Actually, Breathe Fire says it in the text itself:

Quote:
Caster rolls to hit against DX-2 or Innate Attack skill. This counts as an action
You cast the spell (an action) and then next turn you attack with the spell (an action).
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Old 09-23-2016, 07:38 PM   #16
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Default Re: I need a touch of help with clarity of magic

Well...in this case casting Breathe Fire is two actions, which is to say two turns unless you have skill 20+, and then you can attack on the third turn. It's really not a very good spell.
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Old 09-23-2016, 08:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: I need a touch of help with clarity of magic

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Well...in this case casting Breathe Fire is two actions, which is to say two turns unless you have skill 20+, and then you can attack on the third turn. It's really not a very good spell.
It's a great spell if your arms are tied, which is what it is for.

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Old 09-23-2016, 08:35 PM   #18
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Default Re: I need a touch of help with clarity of magic

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
However, you can not use an Innate Attack(Jet) Skill during a Concentrate maneuver and certainly not the same one you're using on the Spell.

Now with Jet Spells (which are maintainable) after you cast you can blaze away every Turn. Not so with Breath Spells of course. The " Touch" spells also have this "Concentrate->Attack, repeat" pattern. They can't be Maintained either.

Regular Spells that have no attack roll but proceed directly to the Resistance Roll can be cast and take effect in one Turn (if the Spell can be cast that fast).
Well, I concede that I was unsure of how Breathe Fire and Jet spells worked. So Jet requires you to spend 1-4 Fat in the first turn, doing nothing? That really sucks. Though Jet spells may change significantly in the DFRPG.
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Old 09-23-2016, 08:52 PM   #19
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Default Re: I need a touch of help with clarity of magic

Most spells take one second to cast. Take the Concentrate maneuver for
one turn and attempt your skill roll at the end of your turn. If you succeed,
the spell takes effect instantly. [M 7]


Missile spells are a special case:

To cast a Missile spell, you must concentrate for one second. At the end of
your turn, roll against your skill with the spell.... On your next turn, you have three options with your missile: make a ranged attack with it, hold it, or enlarge it. [M12]

Seems pretty straight forward to me.
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Old 09-23-2016, 09:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: I need a touch of help with clarity of magic

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Right. You cast the spell and then next turn you can attack with it or make it bigger (by pumping more energy into it). You can't cast AND attack in the same turn. To do that you need special advantages.
Like Compartmentalized Mind (No mental separation, -20%; Limited: Spells only, -5%; Magical , -10%) [32.5/level] and probably Compartmentalized Mind (No mental separation, -20%; Limited: Spells only, -5%; Magical , -10%; Granted by Familiar -40%) [12.5/level] Remember you round the cost up after you have multiplied but the number of levels you buy. but one level would be [33] or [13] points

Which Would give you an extra Mental Manueaver like Concentration that you can only use with spells, only when not neutralise and in an area of mana, makes you count as a magical creature vs pentagrams it also doesn't give you the advantage's bonus vs mind control [and only when you familiar is present if the second option is taken]
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