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Old 09-20-2016, 11:38 PM   #11
Joseph Paul
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Default Re: Templates -Breaking the Wall of Words

What if it was scanned with OCR and saved as a non-PDF text format?
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Old 09-21-2016, 02:01 AM   #12
Mailanka
 
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Default Re: Templates -Breaking the Wall of Words

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
What world do you live in?
Seriously, the majority of people find it hard to read and at least one GURPS author uses the term "makes my eyes bleed".

It is absolutely easier to write up an easier to read template than the standard one. The trouble is easier to read directly competes with conciseness and lower word count.
Give every skill and advantage its own line and it is MUCH easier to read, but takes up more of the page and with lots of wasted space.
Filling that space with art, boxes or other layout tricks costs more money.
Let's see what it would look like. I have my Psi-Wars templates, which I can legally post here as they're mine, but they're roughly the same density as an Action template.

The Spy template looks something like this:

Spy 250 points

Attributes: ST 10 [0], DX 14 [80]; IQ 14 [80]; HT 11 [10]

Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d-2/1d; BL 20 lbs; HP 10 [0]; Will 14 [0]; Per 15 [5]; FP 11 [0]; Basic Speed 6.00 [-5]; Basic Move 6 [0]

Advantages: Craftiness +2 [10] or Impersonator +2 [10], Luck [15]. ● Choose a total of 25 points from the following: DX +1 [20], IQ +1 [20], Per +1 to +3 [5/level], Absolute Timing [2], Acute Senses (Any) [2/level], Ally (Robot, 50%, almost all the time) [9], Appearance (Attractive or Beautiful) [4 or 12], Bug Sweeper [1], Cat Fall [10], Combat Reflexes [15], Compact Frame [1], Contact Group (Any, skill 12, 15 or 18, 9 or less) [5, 10, 15], Craftiness +1 to +4 [5/level], Cultural Adaptability [10], Cultural Familiarity [1], Danger Sense [15], Daredevil [15], either Eidetic Memory or Photographic Memory [5 or 10], Flexibility [5], Gizmos 1-3 [5/level], High Heeled Heroine [1], High Manual Dexterity +1 to +4 [5/level], Honest Face [1], Impersonator +1 to +4 [5/level], Intelligence Rank 1-4 [5/level], Language [6], Night Vision 1-9 [1/level], Perfect Balance [15], Signature Gear [Varies], Security Clearance [5-15], Serendipity 1-2 [15/level], Voice [10], Wild Talent 1 [20], Zeroed [10], or improve Luck [15] to Extraordinary Luck [30] for 15 points.

Disadvantages: Choose -15 from Code of Honor (Professional) [-5], Compulsive Behavior (Thrill-Seeking) [-5*], Curious [-5*], Duty to Intelligence Agency* (9 or less to 15 or less, Extremely hazardous) [-10, -15,-20], Fanaticism (Faction) [-15], Obsession (Uncover particular secret or bring down particular organization/enemy) [-5], Overconfidence [-5*], Secret (“Is a spy”, “Double Agent” or Past crimes) [-10 to -20], Sense of Duty (Team or Faction) [-5 or -10], Workaholic [-5]; ● Choose another -30 points from the above or from ST -1 [-10], HP -1 to -3 [-2/level], Alcoholism [-15], Callous [-5], Impulsiveness [-10*], Jealousy [-10], Insomniac [-10 to -15], Loner [-5*], Nightmares [-5*], Pacifism (Cannot harm innocents) [-10], Paranoia [-10], Post-Combat Shakes [-5*], Signature Gear [varies], Signature Spaceship [varies], Skinny [-5], Social Stigma (Criminal Record), Stubbornness [-5], Trademark [-5 to -15], Trickster [-15*].

Primary Skills: Intelligence Analysis (H) IQ+1 [8]-15, Observation (A) Per+1 [4]-16, Search (A) Per+1 [4]-16, Stealth DX+21 [8]-16. ● Choose four of Filch (A) DX+1 [4]-15, or Pickpocket (H) DX [4]-14. Forced Entry (E) DX+2 [4]-16, Acting, Disguise both (A) IQ+33 [4]-17, Electronics Operation (Communications, Security, Sensors, or Surveillance), Holdout1, Shadowing1, Fast-Talk all (A) IQ+1 [4]-15, Computer Hacking (H) IQ [4]-14, or Carousing (E) HT+1 [2]-12, or Sex Appeal (A) HT [2]-11

Secondary Skills: Beam Weapons (Pistol) (E) DX [1]-14; Computer Operation (E) IQ+1 [2]-15; ● Either Brawling (E) DX+1 [2]-15 or Karate (H) DX-1 [2]-13; ● Either Judo (H) DX-1 [2]-13 or Wrestling (A) DX [2]-14; ● Choose five from Beam Weapons (Rifle) (E) DX [1]-14, Climbing (A) DX-1 [1]-13, Escape or Sleight of Hand (H) DX-2 [1]-12, Current Affairs (Headline News or Politics) or Savoir-Faire (High Society, Mafia, Military)2,all (E) IQ+2 [4]-16 (E) IQ [1]-14, Camouflage1, Electrician, Electronics Operation (Comms, Security, Sensors, Surveillance), Explosives (Demolition), Mechanic (Any), Photography, Research, Smuggling, Speed-Reading, Streetwise2 or Traps all (A) IQ-1 [1]-13, Computer Hacking, Engineer (Civil or Starship), Expert Skill (Conspiracy Theory or Military Science) all (H) IQ-2 [1]-12, Swimming (E) HT [1]-11, Running (A) HT-1 [1]-10, Scrounging (E) Per [1]-15, Body Language2, Lip-Reading both (A) Per-1 [1]-14, Detect Lies (H) Per-2 [1]-13

Background Skills: Divide 2 points among Pilot (Contragravity or Starship) both (A) DX-1 [1]-13 or Navigation (Hyperspace) (A) IQ-1 [1]-13, or improve one of the above by one level to [2] for +1 point; Vacc Suit (A) DX-1 [1]-13, and 20 points chosen from a background lens.

Notes: Duty is required if the character has Intelligence Rank. Zeroed and Social Stigma are mutually incompatible.
1: If you chose Craftiness, add +2 to this skill.
2: If you chose Impersonator, add +2 to this skill.
3: +2 from either Craftiness or Impersonator
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Old 09-21-2016, 02:06 AM   #13
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Default Re: Templates -Breaking the Wall of Words

Alright, now broken out for one line per trait:

Spy 250 points

Attributes:
ST 10 [0]
DX 14 [80]
IQ 14 [80]
HT 11 [10]

Secondary Characteristics:
Damage 1d-2/1d
BL 20 lbs
HP 10 [0]
Will 14 [0]
Per 15 [5]
FP 11 [0]
Basic Speed 6.00 [-5]
Basic Move 6 [0]

Advantages:
Craftiness +2 [10] or Impersonator +2 [10]
Luck [15]
Choose a total of 25 points from the following:
DX +1 [20]
IQ +1 [20]
Per +1 to +3 [5/level]
Absolute Timing [2]
Acute Senses (Any) [2/level]
Ally (Robot, 50%, almost all the time) [9]
Appearance (Attractive or Beautiful) [4 or 12]
Bug Sweeper [1]
Cat Fall [10]
Combat Reflexes [15]
Compact Frame [1]
Contact Group (Any, skill 12, 15 or 18, 9 or less) [5, 10, 15]
Craftiness +1 to +4 [5/level]
Cultural Adaptability [10]
Cultural Familiarity (Any) [1]
Danger Sense [15]
Daredevil [15]
either Eidetic Memory or Photographic Memory [5 or 10]
Flexibility [5]
Gizmos 1-3 [5/level]
High Heeled Heroine [1]
High Manual Dexterity +1 to +4 [5/level]
Honest Face [1]
Impersonator +1 to +4 [5/level]
Intelligence Rank 1-4 [5/level]
Language [6]
Night Vision 1-9 [1/level]
Perfect Balance [15]
Signature Gear [Varies]
Security Clearance [5-15]
Serendipity 1-2 [15/level]
Voice [10]
Wild Talent 1 [20]
Zeroed [10]
improve Luck [15] to Extraordinary Luck [30] for 15 points
Disadvantages:
Choose -15 from
Code of Honor (Professional) [-5]
Compulsive Behavior (Thrill-Seeking) [-5*]
Curious [-5*]
Duty to Intelligence Agency* (9 or less to 15 or less, Extremely hazardous) [-10, -15,-20]
Fanaticism (Faction) [-15]
Obsession (Uncover particular secret or bring down particular organization/enemy) [-5]
Overconfidence [-5*]
Secret (“Is a spy”, “Double Agent” or Past crimes) [-10 to -20]
Sense of Duty (Team or Faction) [-5 or -10]
Workaholic [-5]
Choose another -30 points from the above or from
ST -1 [-10]
HP -1 to -3 [-2/level]
Alcoholism [-15]
Callous [-5]
Impulsiveness [-10*]
Jealousy [-10]
Insomniac [-10 to -15]
Loner [-5*]
Nightmares [-5*]
Pacifism (Cannot harm innocents) [-10]
Paranoia [-10]
Post-Combat Shakes [-5*]
Signature Gear [varies]
Signature Spaceship [varies]
Skinny [-5]
Social Stigma (Criminal Record)
Stubbornness [-5]
Trademark [-5 to -15]
Trickster [-15*]
Primary Skills:
Intelligence Analysis (H) IQ+1 [8]-15
Observation (A) Per+1 [4]-16
Search (A) Per+1 [4]-16
Stealth DX+2* [8]-16
Choose four of
Filch (A) DX+1 [4]-15
Pickpocket (H) DX [4]-14
Forced Entry (E) DX+2 [4]-16
Acting (A) IQ+3* [4]-17
Disguise (A) IQ+3* [4]-17
Electronics Operation (Communications, Security, Sensors, or Surveillance) (A) IQ+1 [4]-15 Holdout* (A) IQ+1 [4]-15
Shadowing* (A) IQ+1 [4]-15
Fast-Talk (A) IQ+1 [4]-15
Computer Hacking (H) IQ [4]-14
Carousing (E) HT+1 [2]-12
Sex Appeal (A) HT [2]-11
Secondary Skills:
Beam Weapons (Pistol) (E) DX [1]-14
Computer Operation (E) IQ+1 [2]-15
Either Brawling (E) DX+1 [2]-15 or Karate (H) DX-1 [2]-13
Either Judo (H) DX-1 [2]-13 or Wrestling (A) DX [2]-14
Choose five of
Beam Weapons (Rifle) (E) DX [1]-14
Climbing (A) DX-1 [1]-13
Escape (H) DX-2 [1]-12
Sleight of Hand (H) DX-2 [1]-12
Camouflage (E) IQ [1]-14
Current Affairs (Headline News or Politics) (E) IQ [1]-14
Savoir-Faire (High Society, Mafia, Military)* (E) IQ [1]-14
Electrician (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Electronics Operation (Comms, Security, Sensors, Surveillance) (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Explosives (Demolition) (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Mechanic (Any) (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Photography (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Research (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Smuggling(A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Speed-Reading (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Streetwise* (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Traps (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Computer Hacking (H) IQ-2 [1]-12
Engineer (Civil or Starship) (H) IQ-2 [1]-12
Expert Skill (Conspiracy Theory or Military Science) (H) IQ-2 [1]-12, Swimming (E) HT [1]-11
Running (A) HT-1 [1]-10
Scrounging (E) Per [1]-15
Body Language* Per-1 [1]-14
Lip-Reading (A) Per-1 [1]-14
Detect Lies (H) Per-2 [1]-13
Background Skills:
Divide 2 points among
Pilot (Contragravity or Starship) both (A) DX-1 [1]-13
Navigation (Hyperspace) (A) IQ-1 [1]-13,
or improve one of the above by one level to [2] for +1 point;
Vacc Suit (A) DX-1 [1]-13
20 points chosen from a background lens.

Notes: Duty is required if the character has Intelligence Rank. Zeroed and Social Stigma are mutually incompatible.
1: If you chose Craftiness, add +2 to this skill.
2: If you chose Impersonator, add +2 to this skill.
3: +2 from either Craftiness or Impersonator

It seems clear I've lost my superscripts, so I apologize for that. Some people ask "Why can this not be done?" Or show examples that are very simple and straight forward. I wanted to see (and to show) what both versions actually look like, side by side, to get a real comparison. Is it really worth the white space and ink to do the latter over the former? That's not rhetorical, but a genuine question.
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Old 09-21-2016, 03:56 AM   #14
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Default Re: Templates -Breaking the Wall of Words

It absolutely is. I haven't managed to read through a single template in its entirety that was formatted in the first style.

That said, I completely understand SJGames decision. I wonder if it would be possible to make the templates in the second style available as a digital add-on (a .txt file, say) to purchased books. If it isn't too much effort, it would be awesome!
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:14 AM   #15
Joseph Paul
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Default Re: Templates -Breaking the Wall of Words

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post

It seems clear I've lost my superscripts, so I apologize for that. Some people ask "Why can this not be done?" Or show examples that are very simple and straight forward. I wanted to see (and to show) what both versions actually look like, side by side, to get a real comparison. Is it really worth the white space and ink to do the latter over the former? That's not rhetorical, but a genuine question.

Is it worth it in regards to what? My original intent was to ask for advice for a personal project for my personal gaming. Obviously for my own purposes I think it is worth investigating and that it would make things easier for people I play with as well as myself as chief creator of a large setting. It would hinge on just how much can I automate and can I pull from physical copies with OCR and get a low incidence of mistakes. Typing it by hand...maybe.

If you are asking about that tongue in cheek side quest - the Big Book of Templates - no. SJG has made it clear that they have good and sufficient reason to produce templates in the format they have chosen and they won't spend resources to do it any other way.

Your specific objection to white space can be partially ameliorated by going to two columns for actual A/D/S entries which the forum does not do a good job of formatting.

Header Line. Pick two skills

Column 1 _______________________Column 2
Entry 1 _________________________Entry 4
Entry 2 _________________________Entry 5
Entry 3 _________________________Entry 6
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:18 AM   #16
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Default Re: Templates -Breaking the Wall of Words

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
Is it really worth the white space and ink to do the latter over the former? That's not rhetorical, but a genuine question.
Well, if they can be made to have the same number of characters, they should take up the same amount of ink. So if you are just adding line breaks ink isn't the problem.

I personally think having the white space of the latter is definitely worth the gains in readability. On the other hand, the white space can be a problem in printed media because that wastes a lot of paper. But for my home games where I'm distributing everything as PDFs that isn't a problem.
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:35 AM   #17
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Default Re: Templates -Breaking the Wall of Words

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Paul View Post
What if it was scanned with OCR and saved as a non-PDF text format?
Unless that was a REALLY advanced OCR program specifically designed to do exactly what you want it to do it would likely create even more formatting problems.

Though, thinking about the problem again. Copy the PDF text for a template, strip out all newlines, do newline on semicolon, do newline on dot, do indent and newline on comma should produce something largely in line with what Mailanka posted
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Old 09-21-2016, 10:55 AM   #18
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Default Re: Templates -Breaking the Wall of Words

Quote:
Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
...
Though, thinking about the problem again. Copy the PDF text for a template, strip out all newlines, do newline on semicolon, do newline on dot, do indent and newline on comma should produce something largely in line with what Mailanka posted
I put it through with this idea and I found that stripping out all the newlines already there causes problems, but doing everything else you get this,

Spy 250 points

Attributes:

ST 10 [0]
DX 14 [80]
IQ 14 [80]
HT 11 [10]

Secondary Characteristics:
*Damage 1d-2/1d
BL 20 lbs
HP 10 [0]
Will 14 [0]
Per 15 [5]
FP 11 [0]
Basic Speed 6.00 [-5]
Basic Move 6 [0]

Advantages:
Craftiness +2 [10] or Impersonator +2 [10]
Luck [15].
Choose a total of 25 points from the following:
DX +1 [20]
IQ +1 [20]
Per +1 to +3 [5/level]
Absolute Timing [2]
Acute Senses (Any) [2/level]
Ally (Robot
50%
almost all the time) [9]
Appearance (Attractive or Beautiful) [4 or 12]
Bug Sweeper [1]
Cat Fall [10]
Combat Reflexes [15]
Compact Frame [1]
Contact Group (Any
skill 12
15 or 18
9 or less) [5
10
15]
Craftiness +1 to +4 [5/level]
Cultural Adaptability [10]
Cultural Familiarity [1]
Danger Sense [15]
Daredevil [15]
either Eidetic Memory or Photographic Memory [5 or 10]
Flexibility [5]
Gizmos 1-3 [5/level]
High Heeled Heroine [1]
High Manual Dexterity +1 to +4 [5/level]
Honest Face [1]
Impersonator +1 to +4 [5/level]
Intelligence Rank 1-4 [5/level]
Language [6]
Night Vision 1-9 [1/level]
Perfect Balance [15]
Signature Gear [Varies]
Security Clearance [5-15]
Serendipity 1-2 [15/level]
Voice [10]
Wild Talent 1 [20]
Zeroed [10]
or improve Luck [15] to Extraordinary Luck [30] for 15 points.

Disadvantages:
Choose -15 from Code of Honor (Professional) [-5]
Compulsive Behavior (Thrill-Seeking) [-5*]
Curious [-5*]
Duty to Intelligence Agency* (9 or less to 15 or less
Extremely hazardous) [-10
-15
-20]
Fanaticism (Faction) [-15]
Obsession (Uncover particular secret or bring down particular organization/enemy) [-5]
Overconfidence [-5*]
Secret (“Is a spy”
“Double Agent” or Past crimes) [-10 to -20]
Sense of Duty (Team or Faction) [-5 or -10]
Workaholic [-5]

Choose another -30 points from the above or from ST -1 [-10]
HP -1 to -3 [-2/level]
Alcoholism [-15]
Callous [-5]
Impulsiveness [-10*]
Jealousy [-10]
Insomniac [-10 to -15]
Loner [-5*]
Nightmares [-5*]
Pacifism (Cannot harm innocents) [-10]
Paranoia [-10]
Post-Combat Shakes [-5*]
Signature Gear [varies]
Signature Spaceship [varies]
Skinny [-5]
Social Stigma (Criminal Record)
Stubbornness [-5]
Trademark [-5 to -15]
Trickster [-15*].

Primary Skills:
Intelligence Analysis (H) IQ+1 [8]-15
Observation (A) Per+1 [4]-16
Search (A) Per+1 [4]-16
Stealth DX+21 [8]-16.
Choose four of Filch (A) DX+1 [4]-15
or Pickpocket (H) DX [4]-14. Forced Entry (E) DX+2 [4]-16
Acting
Disguise both (A) IQ+33 [4]-17
Electronics Operation (Communications
Security
Sensors
or Surveillance)
Holdout1
Shadowing1
Fast-Talk all (A) IQ+1 [4]-15
Computer Hacking (H) IQ [4]-14
or Carousing (E) HT+1 [2]-12
or Sex Appeal (A) HT [2]-11

Secondary Skills:
Beam Weapons (Pistol) (E) DX [1]-14
Computer Operation (E) IQ+1 [2]-15

Either Brawling (E) DX+1 [2]-15 or Karate (H) DX-1 [2]-13

Either Judo (H) DX-1 [2]-13 or Wrestling (A) DX [2]-14

Choose five from Beam Weapons (Rifle) (E) DX [1]-14
Climbing (A) DX-1 [1]-13
Escape or Sleight of Hand (H) DX-2 [1]-12
Current Affairs (Headline News or Politics) or Savoir-Faire (High Society
Mafia
Military)2
all (E) IQ+2 [4]-16 (E) IQ [1]-14
Camouflage1
Electrician
Electronics Operation (Comms
Security
Sensors
Surveillance)
Explosives (Demolition)
Mechanic (Any)
Photography
Research
Smuggling
Speed-Reading
Streetwise2 or Traps all (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Computer Hacking
Engineer (Civil or Starship)
Expert Skill (Conspiracy Theory or Military Science) all (H) IQ-2 [1]-12
Swimming (E) HT [1]-11
Running (A) HT-1 [1]-10
Scrounging (E) Per [1]-15
Body Language2
Lip-Reading both (A) Per-1 [1]-14
Detect Lies (H) Per-2 [1]-13

Background Skills:
*Divide 2 points among Pilot (Contragravity or Starship) both (A) DX-1 [1]-13 or Navigation (Hyperspace) (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
or improve one of the above by one level to [2] for +1 point
Vacc Suit (A) DX-1 [1]-13
and 20 points chosen from a background lens.

It is definitely closer to what is wanted, but there are some places with commas that should not have newlines, causing problems. As that I think (Have not looked through carefully enough to know for sure) that these always occur within either () or [] this might be fixable easily with an actual program.

EDIT: looking through it again, nope. There are multiple points it broke at due to commas that are not in brackets or parenthesis.
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Old 09-21-2016, 11:10 AM   #19
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Default Re: Templates -Breaking the Wall of Words

I actually prefer the original because it allows each category to take no more than 1 screen to display. I don't like having to scroll within a single paragraph
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