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Old 10-01-2016, 12:18 PM   #31
starslayer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
That does fix the duration aspect of the saves, though the core problem of not being able to help the weak and it being too easy to help the strong still exists.

Maybe "will affects" could be a modifier for Afflictions. Like normally, it's a HT save, so people with low HT have the advantage of being more able to accept good Afflictions and the disadvantage of being less able to resist bad ones...

If an Affliction is "will affected" it would allow Will to affect the HT roll. If you want to accept the ability then Will should be a penalty against your HT save (you are willing your body to not fight) and if you want to reject the ability then Will should be a bonus to your HT save.

I'm not sure how to value something like that. It's an advantage for abilities you want to use to help others with and a disadvantage for abilities you want to use to hinder others with.

Given that you probably would not use it on abilities intended to be offensive (nothing of value lost) and would primarily use it on abilities you wanted to be helpful, it seems like an enhancement of some value to me.

It should be worth less than Malediction since that allows a target to accept an ability automatically without a contest.
I'm not quite sure I see the core problem with your issue.

For an afflicter with effective skill 15

An HT 15 person:
1. Becomes afflicted ~5% of the time (defender wins ties, and the affliction only works 50% of the time anyway)
2. Tends to have beneficial afflictions last about 5 minutes longer.

An HT 5 person
1. Basically does not resist hostile afflictions
2. Tends to have benificial afflictions last there normal duration.

For an afflicter with effective skill 10

An HT 15 person
1. Resists 90% of afflictions
2. Is successfully afflicted about 85% of the time

An HT 5 person
1. Gets afflicted ~50% of the time
2. is successfully afflicted about 50% of the time.

Positive HT for someone who can actually reliably afflict does not really affect the CHANCE of affliction- for an afflicter who is hit and miss to begin with finds a healthy person easier to afflict; but for an afflicter who can reliably afflict- its just bonus time. Failure of the afflcited to assist the effect does not SUBTRACT from the afflicters skill.
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Old 10-01-2016, 12:46 PM   #32
McAllister
 
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
I get what you are saying, but consider

Affliction: Regeneration 1/sec (100), Costs FP 10 (-50%)

Regenerating for a full minute for 10 FP is probably a pretty awesome trade off if your wounded, and the cost reduction makes it more affordable to heal your allies. However its now ALSO a pretty effective attack, and actually quite devistational against mages.

Now if its linked to a fatiguing attack with the same modifiers, then its the FP attack that's causing the FP damage, which you already paid for, getting the regeneration for a discount just 'makes sense' for its reduced advantageous properties due to the fatigue cost.

It gets a bit more confusing if the granted 'advantage' is also an attack (like say warping your target 10 meters up so that they take fall damage, and getting a discount because you are also hitting them with an attack that costs 5 HP and you make the attack have 'costs HP-5 -50%')- however I still feel this is apropriate. The attack gets a reduced cost because it relies on another attack successfully draining hit points to 'fuel it', it still had advantageous properties (10 meters of warp is also useful for getting allies out of trouble, even with a steep 5 HP cost)
Yeah, if you intend to Afflict enemies with an Advantage, why in the world wouldn't you slap on Costs 8 HP [-80%] to both reduce the cost of your Affliction and hurt them in the bargain? So, for Warp: straight up, Costs HP should be priced as an enhancement. But for Regeneration, Costs FP means it can be used on hurt friends or enemies whose FP pools are valuable. Does that mean Costs FP is a feature, since it adds a downside to healing your friends but opens avenues to exhausting your enemies? I mean, going to the extreme, Costs 16 FP [-80%] is acceptable RAW, so why not Afflict people with Acute Taste 1 (Costs 16 FP), they're forced to spend the FP to gain the benefit of the advantage, and most people are making Will checks every turn lest they fall on the floor? The whole thing seems very odd. I can't help but feel that some of GURPS's finest minds could write a Benediction advantage, Affliction's counterpart, and clear a good deal of this up.
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Old 10-01-2016, 04:04 PM   #33
starslayer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Yeah, if you intend to Afflict enemies with an Advantage, why in the world wouldn't you slap on Costs 8 HP [-80%] to both reduce the cost of your Affliction and hurt them in the bargain? So, for Warp: straight up, Costs HP should be priced as an enhancement. But for Regeneration, Costs FP means it can be used on hurt friends or enemies whose FP pools are valuable. Does that mean Costs FP is a feature, since it adds a downside to healing your friends but opens avenues to exhausting your enemies? I mean, going to the extreme, Costs 16 FP [-80%] is acceptable RAW, so why not Afflict people with Acute Taste 1 (Costs 16 FP), they're forced to spend the FP to gain the benefit of the advantage, and most people are making Will checks every turn lest they fall on the floor? The whole thing seems very odd. I can't help but feel that some of GURPS's finest minds could write a Benediction advantage, Affliction's counterpart, and clear a good deal of this up.
Your kind of restating my initial problem and not noting my proposed solution.

If you want to afflict something with costs 16 FP, you must ALSO purchase an attack that does 16 FP and link it to the affliciton, the affliction only works if the attack consumes the FP to 'power' it. Thus you have paid MORE than the cost of doing 16 FP damage to have it afflict an advantage, but less than the cost of having the unmitigated advantage.

Example Afflict warp:

Warp [90], this lets you teleport people against there will- but you would like to make this draining

Afflict: Warp (costs fp 16) [26] can't exist by itself, and must be paired with
Fatiguing attack

So:
Afflict: Warp (costs FP 16) (link +10%) [29]
Fatiguing attack 4.5 <averages 16 damage> [45]
Total cost is 74,


This IS cheaper than just warp, but now has 'double clutch' issues (IE the fatiguing attack must drain the 16 fatigue to power the warp, and if either fails the combined effect fails)- but you can use this to helpfully teleport your allies, or hurtfully harm your foes while simultaneously teleporting them. I think that the double-clutch issues make up for the slight discount, and are otherwise a valid example of linking attacks.
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Old 10-01-2016, 08:25 PM   #34
kirbwarrior
 
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

Quote:
Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
I get what you are saying, but consider

Affliction: Regeneration 1/sec (100), Costs FP 10 (-50%)

Regenerating for a full minute for 10 FP is probably a pretty awesome trade off if your wounded, and the cost reduction makes it more affordable to heal your allies. However its now ALSO a pretty effective attack, and actually quite devistational against mages.
I completely understand. I wouldn't allow that build. But I like your Linked attack idea and would allow that. However, I could see the build working if YOU payed the 10FP per second for the target. That sounds fair.
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Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 10-02-2016, 02:53 AM   #35
Leynok
 
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
Even with helpful afflictions, if you didn't know the person doing it, you should be trying to resist them.
I've played a game where the GM didn't tell us what was being cast (we were using the magic system, not Afflictions, but close enough) until it happened. We either tried to resist or let it happen based on who was doing the casting, but there were plenty of times when our characters didn't see who was casting the spell, and we tried to resist a few spells from allies as a result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
To allow for easier healing of the unconscious (or hurting) I would say the unconscious can't consciously resist the ability.

That should also apply to surprise attacks too which is sort of brutal.
I completely disagree with this however. GURPS runs on the belief that you should never be stripped of your chance to resist an affect, hence the absolute banning of it even from Cosmic Enhancements. If you're unconscious or unaware of an attack, then I would simply assume that you're always trying to resist (or give the player the option, but not tell them anything about the source or the effects).
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