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Old 09-29-2016, 11:49 PM   #31
starslayer
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
Some thoughts;

I always thought you control advantages you give (as an attack); You would determine whether or not the victim is Insubstantial at a given time (probably with a ready or concentrate maneuver). 'Always On' would limit your options, not the victims. Afflicting Insubstantial instead beneficially so they just have it as though they bought it for a few minutes is different, and Always On now limits them

I (as a GM) would probably never allow certain limitations on advantages afflicted as attacks; Costs FP should just be a linked FP attack, Takes Extra Time should be Stunning, etc. DR with Decreased Time Rate I might allow, because it's bad as both an attack and handing it to your allies. But if it seems to just be a way to snag free points, then definitely not

Anytime I want to have a straight up beneficial affliction, I used to use Malediction, but then I came up with a better enhancement (no name yet). I take Malediction, slap -50% on it for 'only to let them ignore the roll' (total +50%) and then a nuisance effect 'Only if they choose not to resist' -5% (in this case the limitation should never screw you). This is great with area attacks and extended duration (only if close enough to user). Mind, it does make "affects others" into a basically 14.5pt enhancement, but...
I get what you are saying, but consider

Affliction: Regeneration 1/sec (100), Costs FP 10 (-50%)

Regenerating for a full minute for 10 FP is probably a pretty awesome trade off if your wounded, and the cost reduction makes it more affordable to heal your allies. However its now ALSO a pretty effective attack, and actually quite devistational against mages.

Now if its linked to a fatiguing attack with the same modifiers, then its the FP attack that's causing the FP damage, which you already paid for, getting the regeneration for a discount just 'makes sense' for its reduced advantageous properties due to the fatigue cost.

It gets a bit more confusing if the granted 'advantage' is also an attack (like say warping your target 10 meters up so that they take fall damage, and getting a discount because you are also hitting them with an attack that costs 5 HP and you make the attack have 'costs HP-5 -50%')- however I still feel this is apropriate. The attack gets a reduced cost because it relies on another attack successfully draining hit points to 'fuel it', it still had advantageous properties (10 meters of warp is also useful for getting allies out of trouble, even with a steep 5 HP cost)
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Old 09-30-2016, 12:53 AM   #32
Hellboy
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Or, more particularly in this case, "wizard cast the spell just fine but the target, who was cooperating in its casting, was too healthy/unhealthy for it to take hold." .
What I never liked about the optional rule is you have this weird system in regard to HT rolls:

1) harmful: health impedes
2) helpful: health facilitates

The flip makes it hard to help the weak because they need to pass a HT check to gain the helpful advantage or to lose their disadvantage.

Meanwhile it is super easy for high HT guys to both fight off bad effects and gain good ones and its easier still if they are gifted HT.
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Old 09-30-2016, 11:15 AM   #33
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
If you have Malediction, Afflictions can be voluntarily accepted automatically. Otherwise, consent means that (with "unquestionably positive that no one would ever object" stuff) you get the Affliction by making a HT save instead of failing it, and duration is based on how much you won by not how much you lost by.

The downside to this, of course, is while you're pretty much guaranteed to get nice juicy durations for Afflicting your already-beefy HT 20 buddies with even more advantages (afflict 'cumulative' extra HT ad infinitum for ever-increasing durations!) it actually makes it a lot harder to help out your HT 5 dependents who probably need the beneficial Afflictions much more.

Which is largely why this system is sort of broken and why it should be rewired somehow. Which is very possible since this is merely an 'optional' rule.
The solution to this is used a lot in Sorcery. If its a beneficial Affliction, put 'Fixed Duration, +0%' on it (see PU4, p. 14). This means everyone, high and low health, gets a duration equal to MoS 3 (generally 3 minutes). If you want a different amount of time, use Extended and Reduced Duration to taste.
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Old 10-01-2016, 10:31 AM   #34
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

That does fix the duration aspect of the saves, though the core problem of not being able to help the weak and it being too easy to help the strong still exists.

Maybe "will affects" could be a modifier for Afflictions. Like normally, it's a HT save, so people with low HT have the advantage of being more able to accept good Afflictions and the disadvantage of being less able to resist bad ones...

If an Affliction is "will affected" it would allow Will to affect the HT roll. If you want to accept the ability then Will should be a penalty against your HT save (you are willing your body to not fight) and if you want to reject the ability then Will should be a bonus to your HT save.

I'm not sure how to value something like that. It's an advantage for abilities you want to use to help others with and a disadvantage for abilities you want to use to hinder others with.

Given that you probably would not use it on abilities intended to be offensive (nothing of value lost) and would primarily use it on abilities you wanted to be helpful, it seems like an enhancement of some value to me.

It should be worth less than Malediction since that allows a target to accept an ability automatically without a contest.

Last edited by Hellboy; 10-01-2016 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 10-01-2016, 10:51 AM   #35
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

I like the Sorcery approach where people can always choose whether or not to receive a beneficial spell
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Old 10-01-2016, 12:18 PM   #36
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
That does fix the duration aspect of the saves, though the core problem of not being able to help the weak and it being too easy to help the strong still exists.

Maybe "will affects" could be a modifier for Afflictions. Like normally, it's a HT save, so people with low HT have the advantage of being more able to accept good Afflictions and the disadvantage of being less able to resist bad ones...

If an Affliction is "will affected" it would allow Will to affect the HT roll. If you want to accept the ability then Will should be a penalty against your HT save (you are willing your body to not fight) and if you want to reject the ability then Will should be a bonus to your HT save.

I'm not sure how to value something like that. It's an advantage for abilities you want to use to help others with and a disadvantage for abilities you want to use to hinder others with.

Given that you probably would not use it on abilities intended to be offensive (nothing of value lost) and would primarily use it on abilities you wanted to be helpful, it seems like an enhancement of some value to me.

It should be worth less than Malediction since that allows a target to accept an ability automatically without a contest.
I'm not quite sure I see the core problem with your issue.

For an afflicter with effective skill 15

An HT 15 person:
1. Becomes afflicted ~5% of the time (defender wins ties, and the affliction only works 50% of the time anyway)
2. Tends to have beneficial afflictions last about 5 minutes longer.

An HT 5 person
1. Basically does not resist hostile afflictions
2. Tends to have benificial afflictions last there normal duration.

For an afflicter with effective skill 10

An HT 15 person
1. Resists 90% of afflictions
2. Is successfully afflicted about 85% of the time

An HT 5 person
1. Gets afflicted ~50% of the time
2. is successfully afflicted about 50% of the time.

Positive HT for someone who can actually reliably afflict does not really affect the CHANCE of affliction- for an afflicter who is hit and miss to begin with finds a healthy person easier to afflict; but for an afflicter who can reliably afflict- its just bonus time. Failure of the afflcited to assist the effect does not SUBTRACT from the afflicters skill.
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Old 10-01-2016, 12:46 PM   #37
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
I get what you are saying, but consider

Affliction: Regeneration 1/sec (100), Costs FP 10 (-50%)

Regenerating for a full minute for 10 FP is probably a pretty awesome trade off if your wounded, and the cost reduction makes it more affordable to heal your allies. However its now ALSO a pretty effective attack, and actually quite devistational against mages.

Now if its linked to a fatiguing attack with the same modifiers, then its the FP attack that's causing the FP damage, which you already paid for, getting the regeneration for a discount just 'makes sense' for its reduced advantageous properties due to the fatigue cost.

It gets a bit more confusing if the granted 'advantage' is also an attack (like say warping your target 10 meters up so that they take fall damage, and getting a discount because you are also hitting them with an attack that costs 5 HP and you make the attack have 'costs HP-5 -50%')- however I still feel this is apropriate. The attack gets a reduced cost because it relies on another attack successfully draining hit points to 'fuel it', it still had advantageous properties (10 meters of warp is also useful for getting allies out of trouble, even with a steep 5 HP cost)
Yeah, if you intend to Afflict enemies with an Advantage, why in the world wouldn't you slap on Costs 8 HP [-80%] to both reduce the cost of your Affliction and hurt them in the bargain? So, for Warp: straight up, Costs HP should be priced as an enhancement. But for Regeneration, Costs FP means it can be used on hurt friends or enemies whose FP pools are valuable. Does that mean Costs FP is a feature, since it adds a downside to healing your friends but opens avenues to exhausting your enemies? I mean, going to the extreme, Costs 16 FP [-80%] is acceptable RAW, so why not Afflict people with Acute Taste 1 (Costs 16 FP), they're forced to spend the FP to gain the benefit of the advantage, and most people are making Will checks every turn lest they fall on the floor? The whole thing seems very odd. I can't help but feel that some of GURPS's finest minds could write a Benediction advantage, Affliction's counterpart, and clear a good deal of this up.
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Old 10-01-2016, 02:11 PM   #38
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

I would argue that if there is any limitation which can be viewed as negative in any way (HP/FP/corruption/disadvantage) that it would count as an attack...

But I don't like the idea that whether or not you resist an ability depends on its nature when really, the person targeted wouldn't know the nature of it until it happened, otherwise it's based on how much they trust you not what your ability actually does.

Even with helpful afflictions, if you didn't know the person doing it, you should be trying to resist them.

To allow for easier healing of the unconscious (or hurting) I would say the unconscious can't consciously resist the ability.

That should also apply to surprise attacks too which is sort of brutal.
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Old 10-01-2016, 04:04 PM   #39
starslayer
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Yeah, if you intend to Afflict enemies with an Advantage, why in the world wouldn't you slap on Costs 8 HP [-80%] to both reduce the cost of your Affliction and hurt them in the bargain? So, for Warp: straight up, Costs HP should be priced as an enhancement. But for Regeneration, Costs FP means it can be used on hurt friends or enemies whose FP pools are valuable. Does that mean Costs FP is a feature, since it adds a downside to healing your friends but opens avenues to exhausting your enemies? I mean, going to the extreme, Costs 16 FP [-80%] is acceptable RAW, so why not Afflict people with Acute Taste 1 (Costs 16 FP), they're forced to spend the FP to gain the benefit of the advantage, and most people are making Will checks every turn lest they fall on the floor? The whole thing seems very odd. I can't help but feel that some of GURPS's finest minds could write a Benediction advantage, Affliction's counterpart, and clear a good deal of this up.
Your kind of restating my initial problem and not noting my proposed solution.

If you want to afflict something with costs 16 FP, you must ALSO purchase an attack that does 16 FP and link it to the affliciton, the affliction only works if the attack consumes the FP to 'power' it. Thus you have paid MORE than the cost of doing 16 FP damage to have it afflict an advantage, but less than the cost of having the unmitigated advantage.

Example Afflict warp:

Warp [90], this lets you teleport people against there will- but you would like to make this draining

Afflict: Warp (costs fp 16) [26] can't exist by itself, and must be paired with
Fatiguing attack

So:
Afflict: Warp (costs FP 16) (link +10%) [29]
Fatiguing attack 4.5 <averages 16 damage> [45]
Total cost is 74,


This IS cheaper than just warp, but now has 'double clutch' issues (IE the fatiguing attack must drain the 16 fatigue to power the warp, and if either fails the combined effect fails)- but you can use this to helpfully teleport your allies, or hurtfully harm your foes while simultaneously teleporting them. I think that the double-clutch issues make up for the slight discount, and are otherwise a valid example of linking attacks.
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Old 10-01-2016, 08:25 PM   #40
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
I get what you are saying, but consider

Affliction: Regeneration 1/sec (100), Costs FP 10 (-50%)

Regenerating for a full minute for 10 FP is probably a pretty awesome trade off if your wounded, and the cost reduction makes it more affordable to heal your allies. However its now ALSO a pretty effective attack, and actually quite devistational against mages.
I completely understand. I wouldn't allow that build. But I like your Linked attack idea and would allow that. However, I could see the build working if YOU payed the 10FP per second for the target. That sounds fair.
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