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Old 09-21-2016, 11:22 PM   #21
McAllister
 
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Supernatural abilities in fiction usually just work; games traditionally have had "saves" instead. I don't really know if there's a reason for this other than "dead-with-no-save" sucks, and gamers like rolling for stuff. In this case it replaces the resistance roll with an an acceptance roll, probably for entirely mechanical reasons.
Spells failing to affect resisting targets has little basis in fiction; some, but fairly little. Spells failing to affect willing targets has nearly no basis in fiction. The distinction is that the first is necessary for game balance, and the second, as far as I can tell, isn't necessary at all.
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Old 09-21-2016, 11:48 PM   #22
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Spells failing to affect resisting targets has little basis in fiction; some, but fairly little. Spells failing to affect willing targets has nearly no basis in fiction. The distinction is that the first is necessary for game balance, and the second, as far as I can tell, isn't necessary at all.
It is necessary because stuff in roleplaying games usually has some chance of failure.
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Old 09-22-2016, 08:39 AM   #23
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
It is necessary because stuff in roleplaying games usually has some chance of failure.
The problem is usually "Wizard messed up the spell" not "Wizard cast the spell just fine but the victim threw it off".
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Old 09-22-2016, 10:25 AM   #24
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
The problem is usually "Wizard messed up the spell" not "Wizard cast the spell just fine but the victim threw it off".
Or, more particularly in this case, "wizard cast the spell just fine but the target, who was cooperating in its casting, was too healthy/unhealthy for it to take hold." Throwing it off through heroic act of will? Fine. But throwing it off through unfortunate passive Will, I don't understand.

And yeah, we roll for a lot of things, but we don't roll to drive from point A to point B unless there are some dramatic circumstances. I don't reckon casting beneficial spells to be so dramatic by default.
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Old 09-22-2016, 10:34 AM   #25
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Spells failing to affect willing targets has nearly no basis in fiction... the second, as far as I can tell, isn't necessary at all.
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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
It is necessary because stuff in roleplaying games usually has some chance of failure.
While the original case is a matter of dramatic convention, and not a game mechanic. A willing target when you're buffing or otherwise prepping having a failure and needing a recast isn't dramatically interesting, so the fiction authors skip it. And so does GURPS and most most RPG system. You don't roll for every action, every time. Just the ones where the negative consequences could affect the outcome. You don't need a mechanic to distinguish the two cases. You just need a GM that understands when it's not worth rolling.
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Old 09-22-2016, 04:08 PM   #26
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Supernatural abilities in fiction usually just work; games traditionally have had "saves" instead. I don't really know if there's a reason for this other than "dead-with-no-save" sucks, and gamers like rolling for stuff. In this case it replaces the resistance roll with an an acceptance roll, probably for entirely mechanical reasons.
Those few seconds of somebody struggling before they start to change are the victim getting lucky on the first QC or two. Do you really think turning somebody into a frog needs 3 seconds of weirdness attached to them before anything happens?
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Old 09-29-2016, 11:31 PM   #27
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

Some thoughts;

I always thought you control advantages you give (as an attack); You would determine whether or not the victim is Insubstantial at a given time (probably with a ready or concentrate maneuver). 'Always On' would limit your options, not the victims. Afflicting Insubstantial instead beneficially so they just have it as though they bought it for a few minutes is different, and Always On now limits them

I (as a GM) would probably never allow certain limitations on advantages afflicted as attacks; Costs FP should just be a linked FP attack, Takes Extra Time should be Stunning, etc. DR with Decreased Time Rate I might allow, because it's bad as both an attack and handing it to your allies. But if it seems to just be a way to snag free points, then definitely not

Anytime I want to have a straight up beneficial affliction, I used to use Malediction, but then I came up with a better enhancement (no name yet). I take Malediction, slap -50% on it for 'only to let them ignore the roll' (total +50%) and then a nuisance effect 'Only if they choose not to resist' -5% (in this case the limitation should never screw you). This is great with area attacks and extended duration (only if close enough to user). Mind, it does make "affects others" into a basically 14.5pt enhancement, but...
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Old 09-29-2016, 11:49 PM   #28
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
Some thoughts;

I always thought you control advantages you give (as an attack); You would determine whether or not the victim is Insubstantial at a given time (probably with a ready or concentrate maneuver). 'Always On' would limit your options, not the victims. Afflicting Insubstantial instead beneficially so they just have it as though they bought it for a few minutes is different, and Always On now limits them

I (as a GM) would probably never allow certain limitations on advantages afflicted as attacks; Costs FP should just be a linked FP attack, Takes Extra Time should be Stunning, etc. DR with Decreased Time Rate I might allow, because it's bad as both an attack and handing it to your allies. But if it seems to just be a way to snag free points, then definitely not

Anytime I want to have a straight up beneficial affliction, I used to use Malediction, but then I came up with a better enhancement (no name yet). I take Malediction, slap -50% on it for 'only to let them ignore the roll' (total +50%) and then a nuisance effect 'Only if they choose not to resist' -5% (in this case the limitation should never screw you). This is great with area attacks and extended duration (only if close enough to user). Mind, it does make "affects others" into a basically 14.5pt enhancement, but...
I get what you are saying, but consider

Affliction: Regeneration 1/sec (100), Costs FP 10 (-50%)

Regenerating for a full minute for 10 FP is probably a pretty awesome trade off if your wounded, and the cost reduction makes it more affordable to heal your allies. However its now ALSO a pretty effective attack, and actually quite devistational against mages.

Now if its linked to a fatiguing attack with the same modifiers, then its the FP attack that's causing the FP damage, which you already paid for, getting the regeneration for a discount just 'makes sense' for its reduced advantageous properties due to the fatigue cost.

It gets a bit more confusing if the granted 'advantage' is also an attack (like say warping your target 10 meters up so that they take fall damage, and getting a discount because you are also hitting them with an attack that costs 5 HP and you make the attack have 'costs HP-5 -50%')- however I still feel this is apropriate. The attack gets a reduced cost because it relies on another attack successfully draining hit points to 'fuel it', it still had advantageous properties (10 meters of warp is also useful for getting allies out of trouble, even with a steep 5 HP cost)
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Old 09-30-2016, 11:15 AM   #29
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
If you have Malediction, Afflictions can be voluntarily accepted automatically. Otherwise, consent means that (with "unquestionably positive that no one would ever object" stuff) you get the Affliction by making a HT save instead of failing it, and duration is based on how much you won by not how much you lost by.

The downside to this, of course, is while you're pretty much guaranteed to get nice juicy durations for Afflicting your already-beefy HT 20 buddies with even more advantages (afflict 'cumulative' extra HT ad infinitum for ever-increasing durations!) it actually makes it a lot harder to help out your HT 5 dependents who probably need the beneficial Afflictions much more.

Which is largely why this system is sort of broken and why it should be rewired somehow. Which is very possible since this is merely an 'optional' rule.
The solution to this is used a lot in Sorcery. If its a beneficial Affliction, put 'Fixed Duration, +0%' on it (see PU4, p. 14). This means everyone, high and low health, gets a duration equal to MoS 3 (generally 3 minutes). If you want a different amount of time, use Extended and Reduced Duration to taste.
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Old 10-01-2016, 10:51 AM   #30
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

I like the Sorcery approach where people can always choose whether or not to receive a beneficial spell
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