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Old 09-17-2016, 01:10 AM   #11
McAllister
 
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Why aren't you just using Shadow Form (3-D Movement, +20%; Can Speak, +5%; Illusionary Form, +25%) [-12]?
This looks like it might actually be what I'm looking for! What's Illusionary Form from, and what does it do? Does it take 3-D Movement and add looking 3-D?

Also, is there some reason Shadow Form should take away someone's ability to speak?
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Old 09-17-2016, 01:15 AM   #12
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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This looks like it might actually be what I'm looking for! What's Illusionary Form from, and what does it do? Does it take 3-D Movement and add looking 3-D?
p. 134 GURPS Fantasy. Basically, yes. It lets you look normal, but still be light and shadow.

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Also, is there some reason Shadow Form should take away someone's ability to speak?
Well, it says "physical actions" and speaking would be a physical action. Personally, as a GM I'd still be cool with speaking.
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Old 09-17-2016, 02:53 AM   #13
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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p. 134 GURPS Fantasy. Basically, yes. It lets you look normal, but still be light and shadow.

Well, it says "physical actions" and speaking would be a physical action. Personally, as a GM I'd still be cool with speaking.
Probably depends on metaphysics of the setting. Vibrating air based speech like reality? No. But spooky spiritual communication or meeting of the minds? Why not? Even if the effects boil down to normal talking.
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Old 09-17-2016, 07:52 AM   #14
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Well, it says "physical actions" and speaking would be a physical action. Personally, as a GM I'd still be cool with speaking.
Shadows whispering to people is such a common thing that I would tend to assume Shadow Form does not include Cannot Speak. No assuming a trait is packaged with a disadvantage unless explicitly stated.
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Old 09-17-2016, 05:39 PM   #15
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Probably depends on metaphysics of the setting. Vibrating air based speech like reality? No. But spooky spiritual communication or meeting of the minds? Why not? Even if the effects boil down to normal talking.
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Shadows whispering to people is such a common thing that I would tend to assume Shadow Form does not include Cannot Speak. No assuming a trait is packaged with a disadvantage unless explicitly stated.
Oh, I agree, gentlemen - but GURPS Fantasy seems to conclude that you can't - at least from the description of Illusory Form. I was just making sure my answer was as RAW as it could be. :-)
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Last edited by Christopher R. Rice; 09-17-2016 at 11:15 PM.
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Old 09-17-2016, 11:00 PM   #16
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Oh, I agree gentlemen - but GURPS Fantasy seems to conclude that you can't - at least from the description of Illusory Form. I was just making sure my answer was as RAW as it could be. :-)
I don't envy you authors with how much cross-referencing needed to avoid too much R.A.W. contradiction. Fans can just toss whatever we think silly, wrong, or just not quite fitting to our play/setting style.
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Old 09-17-2016, 11:18 PM   #17
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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I don't envy you authors with how much cross-referencing needed to avoid too much R.A.W. contradiction. Fans can just toss whatever we think silly, wrong, or just not quite fitting to our play/setting style.
It's a living. :-)
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Old 09-18-2016, 04:12 AM   #18
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

I thought the issue was Temporary Disadvantage on Advantage Afflictions and how confusing the whole good-and-bad trait bundling gets (like, if I'm afflicting people with Shadow Form as a DISadvantage, do the Enhancements that allow the target to speak/move in 3D reduce the value of the Disad? Probably?), but I'll bite.

I don't think fiction has any examples of a person who has no Magic Resistance or similar ability being willing to accept a spell/effect and failing to do so just because the effect isn't... what... strong enough? What is this even modeling? What compelling interest is there in forbidding people from waiving a resistance roll if they don't want to resist? Is it game balance? Some sort of verisimilitude? Ingrained mistrust of people using Affliction to afflict Advantages? If I knew why it were important that beneficial Afflictions could fail, I'd have a better idea of how to make the system better. At the moment, though, "anyone without Magic Resistance" (or similar) "can waive any Affliction resistance roll" seems like the sane route to go, to me.

As for duration, use Fixed Duration? Come up with an Enhancement that says "lasts for 3 minutes or the target's MoS on a HT roll, whichever is longer," which shouldn't be more than +10%? Something like that should work well.

If GURPS 5e changes one thing from 4e and that change is building an entirely separate Benediction advantage, I'll think it was a good call.
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Old 09-21-2016, 02:04 PM   #19
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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I don't think fiction has any examples of a person who has no Magic Resistance or similar ability being willing to accept a spell/effect and failing to do so just because the effect isn't... what... strong enough? What is this even modeling?
Supernatural abilities in fiction usually just work; games traditionally have had "saves" instead. I don't really know if there's a reason for this other than "dead-with-no-save" sucks, and gamers like rolling for stuff. In this case it replaces the resistance roll with an an acceptance roll, probably for entirely mechanical reasons.
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:13 PM   #20
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Default Re: inflicting advantages with negative limitations

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Disadvantages are cheaper to afflict than Advantages so I'm not understanding the purpose of all this.

The issue here is whether or not your target tries to resist or accept your affliction. If they don't want the disadvantage-causing limitation on your advantage then they can choose to resist the advantage.

This is explained in the optional "Beneficial Afflictions" section of Powers page 40.

If you have Malediction, Afflictions can be voluntarily accepted automatically. Otherwise, consent means that (with "unquestionably positive that no one would ever object" stuff) you get the Affliction by making a HT save instead of failing it, and duration is based on how much you won by not how much you lost by.

The downside to this, of course, is while you're pretty much guaranteed to get nice juicy durations for Afflicting your already-beefy HT 20 buddies with even more advantages (afflict 'cumulative' extra HT ad infinitum for ever-increasing durations!) it actually makes it a lot harder to help out your HT 5 dependents who probably need the beneficial Afflictions much more.

Which is largely why this system is sort of broken and why it should be rewired somehow. Which is very possible since this is merely an 'optional' rule.

The HT roll should represent instinctive resistance the body has to outside forces. Being willing shouldn't somehow flip that around so suddenly healthy bodies are accepting outside forces.

Instead, the way it ought to work, if willingness matters, is something like "if the target consents to the Affliction, apply his Will as a penalty to his HT roll".

This way, low HT guys who need help aren't screwed, high HT guys still have problems, but being willing still helps out in receiving it.
This is why I usually just throw Malediction on anything I intend to be a Benediction, which is kinda ironic linguistically. If I wanted something that didn't act like a Malediction but could have an optional resistance roll, I'd probably beg the GM to allow it for +50%.
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