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Old 09-14-2016, 10:50 AM   #21
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Adding Divine Favor to Banestorm

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Originally Posted by martinl View Post
However if you bring them into mainstream society all that changes.
Wouldn't that happen as soon as God asks someone to be a prophet? God probably doesn't expect His prophets to hang out in the desert talking to mice or whatever.

The end result seems like sectarian conflict as the new prophet's followers clash with orthodox authority (either or the genuine Apocalypse).

I suppose it is possible that someone could have God as a Patron and God not expect much in return, but that seems pretty out-of-character for the God of Abraham.
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Old 09-14-2016, 11:08 AM   #22
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Default Re: Adding Divine Favor to Banestorm

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Mystics are generally reclusive and outside of the mainstream religious hierarchy. If you gave them Divine Favor magic things would probably not change much - they would look more like wizards to outsiders, but they are not a threat to powerful religious figures.

However if you bring them into mainstream society all that changes. Why listen to the Bishop's opinion on what God wants when Sister Susan is clearly more favored?
Yrth already has its own saints, so they would not really disturb things much, giving their rarity. As for living people capable upon drawing Divine Favor abilities... well, they had better not preach against church doctrine and politics, or else they will be accused of being wizards faking the miracles, or even heretics drawing upon infernal powers in order to lead the faithful astray.

There is suspicion about these powers among theologians, as p. 27 points out. If one of these mystics can convince the common folk of the Power of God and doesn't lead them away from the Church - that's probably okay, although they need close watching. If they start denouncing the local bishop... well, time to call the Michaelites.
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Old 09-14-2016, 11:10 AM   #23
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Default Re: Adding Divine Favor to Banestorm

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Wouldn't that happen as soon as God asks someone to be a prophet? God probably doesn't expect His prophets to hang out in the desert talking to mice or whatever.
Assuming, of course, that God does talk to his living saints. Just because they can pray for miracles and sometimes get them it doesn't mean that God talks to them directly.

Traditionally, it's angels who talk to saints, although I would leave that out for Yrth-based campaign, in order to better keep the mystery about where those powers come from.
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Old 09-14-2016, 11:22 AM   #24
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Default Re: Adding Divine Favor to Banestorm

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How do they know the difference between "magic" and "miraculous powers"?
When the Divinely endowed does something 'miraculous' and the local Wizard who was watching says "I couldn't detect any magic, I have no idea how they did that."
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Old 09-14-2016, 12:37 PM   #25
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Default Re: Adding Divine Favor to Banestorm

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How do they know the difference between "magic" and "miraculous powers"?
The two work differently. I also assume that the mage-haters have access to some kind of man-dampening bracelets to keep enemy wizards in check. Maybe a relic that blasts wizards. This doesn't work on the saints.
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Old 09-14-2016, 02:17 PM   #26
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When the Divinely endowed does something 'miraculous' and the local Wizard who was watching says "I couldn't detect any magic, I have no idea how they did that."
Heck, these powers even work in no-mana zones.

Of course, the peasantry has no way of distinguishing magic and miracles - what matters is what they believe. However, the more educated people know that such powers manifest among people of other faiths, and might be more skeptical of whether they represent something truly divine.
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Old 09-14-2016, 03:15 PM   #27
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Default Re: Adding Divine Favor to Banestorm

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The two work differently. I also assume that the mage-haters have access to some kind of man-dampening bracelets to keep enemy wizards in check. Maybe a relic that blasts wizards. This doesn't work on the saints.
If you anti-mage measures fail, does that mean it's divine, or just a new kind of wizard? This is actually kind of hard to determine, since the precise boundaries of magic are usually hard to pin down. Not to mention that in real life, there are a LOT of assorted shenanigans associated with miracles and miracle workers. Maybe your saint is a con artist. Maybe the fake saint who's miracles detect as magic just ****** off someone capable of hiring a wizard to stealthily cast "fake magic aura" on them.

Going the other way - let's assume an unambiguous "this is miracle not mana" test that is widely trusted and not easily manipulated.

I. Are the miracle workers reliably subservient to the religious hierarchy?
a. If not, what does the church do when they buck religious authority?
b. If so, what do the miracle workers do when the bishop lives in a gold house and eats rare delicacies when the peasants are starving?

II. What happens when miracle workers from opposing faiths use their powers against one another?

III. What happens when a miracle worker fails? The problem of evil is harder when representatives of the divine walk the Yrth.

That said, my gut reaction to most of these quandaries is that they generate religious turmoil with the saints at the center of things. Better, you can posit a divine attitude that is much more palatable to modern tastes than the default Yrthian moral situation.

Which might be an awesome game, actually.

Last edited by martinl; 09-14-2016 at 03:34 PM. Reason: clarify fisrt paragraph with on artistry
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Old 09-15-2016, 04:30 PM   #28
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I really don't think Divine Favor would alter the world of Banestorm anymore then the Arcane Magic already existing there. The various people of Ytarria are, for the most part, already a bunch of religious believers convinced of the unquestionable existence of God (or Gods), and of the veracity of miracles.

One thing I would point out, however, is that even if someone has Faith in the existence of a Higher Power, that still leaves how they interpret how to best serve that Higher Power. There's absolutely no reason a particularly devout Archbishop who holds his esteemed position in good faith would be less likely to achieve Divine Favor then a small parish priest. Even if his interpretation of Serving God revolves more around enforcing Orthodoxy and Glorifying God through his Church, as opposed to just tending to the poor and the sick. He might even see himself as being supportive of those common priests who do such things, as by making the Church strong, it can then give support to those priests.

For Yrth in particular, my meta-concept for Divine Favor ties directly into the core religious beliefs of the Elder Folk; the Eternal. Which the Elves and Dwarves conceptualize in vague, abstract force that is found in all things, and that all things seek to ascend to the Eternal in their own way. I'd actually take the "Force" analogy even further and give it a "Dark Side" counterpart. Call it the Dark, the Void, the Nothing, the Chaos, whatever you want. But where the Eternal is a force of life and harmony, the Dark is a force of death and discord, that grants more destructive miracles. But these don't necessarily equate to Good and Evil, and could also be interpreted as more of a Yin/Yang relationship of destruction leading to new creation. Not that the Orcs worship the Dark that way.

To the Reptile-Folk and Goblins and other natives of Gabrook, the Eternal equates to Uunkuy, and the Dark equates to Bozdaag. Buddhists see the Eternal as the Elven conceptualization of Enlightenment, while Hindus believe the Eternal is reflected in many aspects in their many gods. The various Gods worshipped by the Pagans might also simply be aspects of the Eternal, or might be Nature Spirits or Demons masquerading as Gods, which is what the Church believes anyway.

For the most part, the Church is still divided as to whether or not the Elder Folk are in need of salvation through conversion, or whether or not they actually count as Fallen to Original Sin.
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Old 09-15-2016, 05:11 PM   #29
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Default Re: Adding Divine Favor to Banestorm

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Assuming, of course, that God does talk to his living saints. Just because they can pray for miracles and sometimes get them it doesn't mean that God talks to them directly.
Wouldn't they just just pray for instructions?
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Old 09-15-2016, 05:16 PM   #30
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Default Re: Adding Divine Favor to Banestorm

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Wouldn't they just just pray for instructions?
Even if they do, that doesn't guarantee any instructions clearer then vague prophetic dreams.

"He Works in Mysterious Ways," after all.
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