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Old 09-13-2016, 10:04 AM   #11
ericthered
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Default Re: Adding Divine Favor to Banestorm

A lot of the new miracle workers will end up quite faithful to the established hierarchies. You will have some odd ducks with odd beliefs, but for the most part it will strengthen the church in general.

It will wreck havoc on internal factions though. Some factions will use the new miracle workers as stars of their cause, while other factions will try to downplay them out of self defense. That will cause a lot of turmoil, and exacerbate standing issues. You may get a reformation.

The Islamic vs. Christian Split won't really be effected: magic is already in the world and the two cultures are distinct enough that in all nations but Cardiel such effects are liable to be written off as propaganda. And they're considered weird by everyone else anyways.
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Old 09-13-2016, 11:45 AM   #12
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Default Re: Adding Divine Favor to Banestorm

Doesn't one of the Islamic faiths reject magic? This would strengthen them since they get access to miraculous powers.
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Old 09-13-2016, 12:01 PM   #13
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I'm thinking it scales with inward sincerity. This may be very unnerving to the hierarchy.
How would they know? Inward sincerity is invisible.

This is often a problem with the discussions of this sort of thing, people discuss the consequences as everybody knew details that they can't possibly determine.

A new sort of magic shows up. Is it divine favor?

The people who can do it say so? Well, that's convincing isn't it. Nobody is ever wrong about God being on their side.

People who aren't even members of our faith can do it? That seals it, it is definitely not. Must be something else. Maybe God is OK with it, maybe it's the work of demons, maybe it really even comes from God but he has decided to grant it for something other than being obedient to him for inscrutable godly reasons - after all being alive is a gift of god too right, and he gives that to heretics and Satan worshippers....
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Old 09-13-2016, 01:04 PM   #14
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Default Re: Adding Divine Favor to Banestorm

This goes back all the way to the Republic and the discussion between Socrates and Glaucon about whether it's better to be good or seem good.

It's important to realize that beliefs influence actions - this is why it's important what people believe. I'm not a Christian, but I would imagine that a Christian would answer this thusly:

a) a sincere Christian would behave in a certain way and if divine favor only comes to (some) people who behave in a Christ-like manner then that points to it being given by the guy above and not the guy below

b) more specifically, Paul tells us "that the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." A person who behaves and exemplifies these virtues is probably sincere. They may, theoretically, be someone who tortures innocent animals when no one is watching, but that's unlikely.
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Old 09-13-2016, 05:42 PM   #15
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Default Re: Adding Divine Favor to Banestorm

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How would they know? Inward sincerity is invisible.
This is a setting with mind-reading (and controlling) magic. It may be invisible, but it's not indetectable.
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Old 09-14-2016, 05:43 AM   #16
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This is a setting with mind-reading (and controlling) magic. It may be invisible, but it's not indetectable.
True I suppose.

Though if you start allowing that, you quickly get into the "magic changes everything" problem, where it so distorts how stuff works from reality that plots start breaking. After all if you can routinely test for stuff like sincerity, then doesn't it make sense that everyone would test for it before promoting anyone? Or at very least that every group would test for "loyalty to the interests of group", instantly destroying any plot that depends on people high up in anything working in their self interests rather than for the stated goals of the organization.
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Old 09-14-2016, 06:00 AM   #17
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Default Re: Adding Divine Favor to Banestorm

Considering the kinds of powers Mystics have access to on Yrth, some of which are blatantly supernatural (see GURPS Banestorm, p. 213), I don't really have a problem with using Divine Favor as it is. And the "Simple Faith" segment on p. 27 suggests that even praying for miracles is possible, for some genuinely devout.

Still, people with the ability to do "general prayers" for miracles should be very rare, and limited to the genuinely devout - don't allow it to player characters unless you can be sure that the player can act the part.

Furthermore, Mystics seem to be somewhat more common than people who can do general prayers. Perhaps there should be some sort of limitation on Divine Favor which limits it to learned prayers?
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Old 09-14-2016, 10:25 AM   #18
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Doesn't one of the Islamic faiths reject magic? This would strengthen them since they get access to miraculous powers.
How do they know the difference between "magic" and "miraculous powers"?
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Old 09-14-2016, 10:29 AM   #19
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How do they know the difference between "magic" and "miraculous powers"?
When Gabriel shows up and says "Know, Oh Believer, that here stands before you the guided one, sent by God to lead the faithful into Paradise!"?

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Old 09-14-2016, 10:44 AM   #20
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Default Re: Adding Divine Favor to Banestorm

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Considering the kinds of powers Mystics have access to on Yrth, some of which are blatantly supernatural (see GURPS Banestorm, p. 213), I don't really have a problem with using Divine Favor as it is. And the "Simple Faith" segment on p. 27 suggests that even praying for miracles is possible, for some genuinely devout.
Mystics are generally reclusive and outside of the mainstream religious hierarchy. If you gave them Divine Favor magic things would probably not change much - they would look more like wizards to outsiders, but they are not a threat to powerful religious figures.

However if you bring them into mainstream society all that changes. Why listen to the Bishop's opinion on what God wants when Sister Susan is clearly more favored?
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