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Old 10-04-2017, 05:37 PM   #41
Michael Cule
 
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

I'd certainly not want to use Divine Power of any sort on Yrth. The setting is specifically agnostic. Your Yrth will vary of course and mine certainly does.

A system book I'd like would be something to clarify the 'spirit' based magic of Sahud.

But then I'd like a book for Sahud in general. Also one for the Empire, please!
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Old 10-04-2017, 06:57 PM   #42
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

I have some thoughts on how clerical magic may work in a DF game. In the video game Darklands, a historical fantasy set in the 15th century, clerics would pray for the intervention of a saint. So in that sense, the gods in DF7 would just be replaced with a saint. The cleric is just a disciple of the saint they follow and embody of the saint's ideals.
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A system book I'd like would be something to clarify the 'spirit' based magic of Sahud.
Maybe Assisting Spirits from Thaumatology is how Sahud spirit magic works?
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Old 10-04-2017, 10:18 PM   #43
David Johansen
 
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

An invasion of gods would actually be a cool campaign theme for Yrth. How do the Christian priests deal with cults with real powers and gods what can put a brick through your window? How do real gods deal with very rational Jesuits?

I expect you'd want the gods to be more on the 1000 point super level rather than all powerful. How would you model that? Are worshipers dependants? Needed to support powers? Maybe the gods are weak in this world because they don't have many worshipers yet but can grant powers to followers that don't require magical aptitude. You could go with a real world pantheon, one from a fantasy world, Justice League analogs, or something more Kirbyeqsue or Lovecraftian.
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Old 10-05-2017, 09:05 AM   #44
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

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An invasion of gods would actually be a cool campaign theme for Yrth. How do the Christian priests deal with cults with real powers and gods what can put a brick through your window?
I think a lot like how Steve Rogers reacts to meeting Thor and Loki:
"There's only one God Ma'am, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't dress like that."
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Old 10-05-2017, 10:32 AM   #45
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

Gods become partially limited by universe. The Christian God is the creator and arbiter of Earth's universe and has unlimited power there, but on Yrth God's power to keep out other spirits and demons is not absolute. (He obviously sent Earthlings there to do battle with the evil spirits there.) Muslims and Jews can have similar views. In Yrth's universe, those other gods and spirits actually exist and have power, but God is the Rightful and Righteous Lord.

The Sahudese and those with other, disparate belief systems will believe, meanwhile, that there is no difference between Earth and Yrth as far as gods go, except that they may be a little freer to show themselves and their power. The Jewish/Christian/Muslim god is just one of many. A powerful one, to be sure, but not the only one, just as he wasn't back on Earth.

Under this model, any god, even the Judeo-Christian God, would have a finite number of character points. You don't need to actually work out how much they have, since they're NPCs. Unless you're planning on running a Gods of Yrth campaign, in which case I recommend you keep the Judeo-Christian God an NPC anyway.
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Old 10-05-2017, 10:55 AM   #46
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

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Okay, but why are we discussing it then?

I think you should add Pulp Guns to your game; it came out after Banestorm. :)
Because mystics are already in banestorm. They acquire abilities through "Study, meditation, and physical deprivation". There is a template for them on page 212, and it sinks 14 points into Theology and Philosophy. It also demands Disciplines of Faith, and suggests using the pact limitation.

It also has a section starting on page 26 where it describes the abilities. It gives several possible explanations, the problems with those explanations, and makes it abundantly clear the power is connected to religious fervor. It states that true faith is one of the abilities and that the abilities are unaffected by mana levels.

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It doesn't appear to have intelligence or agency, though. It's more like a space opera Higgs field that permeates all of the universe. The personal element that is so essential to the Abrahamic faiths isn't there.
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That personal element would be present with Christian and/or Muslim miracle workers though.
The personal element is there, but is it supplied by a diety or by the supplicant? The Suffi mystic has a very particular idea of what god is like, and its different from what the Megalan Hermit believes. And yet both get personalized interaction with their deity, who conforms to their expectations (or just tweaks it a little), and the Nomad Shaman gets the gods he's looking for.

This "field" is apparently capable of acting like more than one individual. Yes, this leaves you running divine favor with a force who "acts" like one thing locally but is really another globally. But it doesn't shatter agnosticism, because it doesn't seem to favor one faith over another.
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Old 10-05-2017, 12:35 PM   #47
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

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Originally Posted by Michael Cule View Post
I'd certainly not want to use Divine Power of any sort on Yrth. The setting is specifically agnostic. Your Yrth will vary of course and mine certainly does.

A system book I'd like would be something to clarify the 'spirit' based magic of Sahud.
I'd use Path/Book magic for that (Thaumatology pp121-165), since it's based on the magic system from GURPS Spirits, itself based on the one from GURPS Voodoo: The Shadow War (both from 3e). Thaumatology also has a Critical Spell Failure Table for Spirit-based magic (p260). Since I'm not in love with the standard spell system, I'd probably use Path/Book magic for spellcasting in general, perhaps using mostly Paths for Sahud, and mostly Books for the Empire and their satellite states (probably including Abydos) - not sure about al-Haz and al-Wazif, but might use one for one of them, and the other for the other.

Elves and possibly dwarves I think would use Paths (if the dwarves don't use Symbol Drawing, as I would have some or most mages in the Nomad Lands do), and goblins (and probably the gnomes and halflings) would most likely use whatever is prevalent where they live. Less sure about the other sophont races, though the more literally nomadic ones would be less likely to use Ritual Space (which might just mean that their mages naturally or through training have Path/Book Adept for it).

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But then I'd like a book for Sahud in general. Also one for the Empire, please!
I agree with this, though the main book has enough emphasis on the Megalan Empire that I would put that on a lower priority, unless a Megalan-specific book was needed before the Caithness-, Cardiel-, and Araterre-specific books could be published, due to the way they would be written.
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Old 10-05-2017, 01:26 PM   #48
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Because mystics are already in banestorm. They acquire abilities through "Study, meditation, and physical deprivation". There is a template for them on page 212, and it sinks 14 points into Theology and Philosophy. It also demands Disciplines of Faith, and suggests using the pact limitation.

It also has a section starting on page 26 where it describes the abilities. It gives several possible explanations, the problems with those explanations, and makes it abundantly clear the power is connected to religious fervor. It states that true faith is one of the abilities and that the abilities are unaffected by mana levels.





The personal element is there, but is it supplied by a diety or by the supplicant? The Suffi mystic has a very particular idea of what god is like, and its different from what the Megalan Hermit believes. And yet both get personalized interaction with their deity, who conforms to their expectations (or just tweaks it a little), and the Nomad Shaman gets the gods he's looking for.

This "field" is apparently capable of acting like more than one individual. Yes, this leaves you running divine favor with a force who "acts" like one thing locally but is really another globally. But it doesn't shatter agnosticism, because it doesn't seem to favor one faith over another.

The mystics as presented in GURPS Banestorm are very ambiguous and subtle. There's a big difference between being able to use internal abilities like Visualization and literally having God as a Patron.
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Old 10-05-2017, 01:35 PM   #49
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

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The mystics as presented in GURPS Banestorm are very ambiguous and subtle. There's a big difference between being able to use internal abilities like Visualization and literally having God as a Patron.

Considering that, per GURPS:Banestorm (EDIT: page 213), the Friedrichites can get Walk on Liquid and (limited) Warp, I would say characterizing their abilities as "ambiguous" or "internal" would be misguided.

Bear in mind that, even if a character sheet says "Patron:God" (and it doesn't even explicitly state this; the book merely notes that this was used as a pricing guideline), the in character effect is merely "can unreliably cause a wide variety of supernatural effects". In a setting with literal wizards and magical spirits running around, (and again, per canon, characters who already gain the ability to perform blatant supernatural feats by ritual and belief) I would see no difficulty in a skeptical character (or a GM/player who would rather not deal with unambiguous divine intervention) brushing this off as "strong latent magical potential" or whatever.
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Old 10-05-2017, 01:45 PM   #50
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
The mystics as presented in GURPS Banestorm are very ambiguous and subtle. There's a big difference between being able to use internal abilities like Visualization and literally having God as a Patron.
Just because you think you have God as a Patron doesn't mean it's necessarily true. Could be "Divine Favor" just represents a different way of shaping Mana then common Wizardry, which is likely the opinion of more agnostic Mages.

But then that's my opinion. You're entitled to handle your Banestorm your way, I'll handle my Banestorm my way.
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