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Old 09-12-2016, 09:59 PM   #31
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Actually, the "Hell" of Yrth demons is theorized to be a pocket dimension specifically linked to Yrth to get around that whole "Quantum Sargasso" thing.
Yes, that's what I was referencing. Yrth's "hell" doesn't support (or deny) the truth of any one cosmology at all.
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Old 09-13-2016, 12:27 PM   #32
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

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There's hardly consensus that the source of these powers is actually divine either, certainly this is presented as canonically doubtful in GURPS Banestorm. Using Divine Favor would be a much more definite position on existence of God; which for a setting that is very deliberately agnostic is inappropriate.
I think that's where we disagree. I don't think using divine favor really supports the existence of god much more than repeatable powers. I've always seen the mysticism supporting the presence of something. If repeatable powers seem much less supportive to you, then consider the way in which they receive them.

I've always seen the mysticism as something that comes off agnostic rather than atheist. And I don't see divine favor as breaking that in any way.

But it would seem that you believe otherwise.
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Old 09-13-2016, 02:52 PM   #33
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

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I think that's where we disagree. I don't think using divine favor really supports the existence of god much more than repeatable powers.
Having God as a Patron tends to support His existence.

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I've always seen the mysticism supporting the presence of something.
Mysticism (by definition) is about internal reflection and self-improvement, which has a long tradition of being associated with superhuman feats independent of external supernatural influence. Having God as a personal Patron is about as extreme in the direction of extrinsic revelation as you can get, and is therefore pretty removed from the realm of self-reflection and personal intrinsic religious experience that is generally meant by "mysticism".
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Old 09-13-2016, 02:57 PM   #34
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

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Having God as a Patron tends to support His existence.
That's the mechanic we use to describe the effect, but it can be rationalized as something else. I believe Mailanka uses it to describe the Force of the Star Wars Universe, which is definitely not a god.
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Old 09-13-2016, 03:02 PM   #35
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

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That's the mechanic we use to describe the effect, but it can be rationalized as something else.
Having a Patron at all means it's extrinsic, and not therefore mystical. At any rate if you make a Christian or Muslim character with Divine Favor, they aren't likely to rationalize it as something else!

Certainly using these rules in Yrth would make it look a lot like God does exist, to the point that I think it would be a major departure for the setting, even if you did have some meta explanation that the characters aren't aware of in-setting.

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I believe Mailanka uses it to describe the Force of the Star Wars Universe, which is definitely not a god.
Agnosticism about the Force doesn't go very far in Star Wars; even Han gave up on cynicism by the end of the film.

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Old 09-13-2016, 03:06 PM   #36
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

Look, if you don't want Divine Magic in your game, that's your call. But if others like myself want to add it to our Banestorm campaigns, that's our call. Simple as that.
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Old 09-13-2016, 03:08 PM   #37
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

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Look, if you don't want Divine Magic in your game, that's your call. But if others like myself want to add it to our Banestorm campaigns, that's our call. Simple as that.
Okay, but why are we discussing it then?

I think you should add Pulp Guns to your game; it came out after Banestorm. :)
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Old 09-13-2016, 03:08 PM   #38
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

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Agnosticism about the Force doesn't go very far in Star Wars; even Han gave up on cynicism by the end of the film.
It doesn't appear to have intelligence or agency, though. It's more like a space opera Higgs field that permeates all of the universe. The personal element that is so essential to the Abrahamic faiths isn't there.
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Old 09-13-2016, 03:12 PM   #39
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

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It doesn't appear to have intelligence or agency, though. It's more like a space opera Higgs field that permeates all of the universe. The personal element that is so essential to the Abrahamic faiths isn't there.
That personal element would be present with Christian and/or Muslim miracle workers though.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:55 PM   #40
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Default Re: Options for GURPS Banestorm - 11 years later

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That's the mechanic we use to describe the effect, but it can be rationalized as something else. I believe Mailanka uses it to describe the Force of the Star Wars Universe, which is definitely not a god.

According to Lucas, the Force is explicitely a deity, just not specified and with no specific dogma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fo...original_films

And people talk about 'following the will of the Force" and "let the Force guide you" all the time, and a distinct directing guide is noted on several occasions. There's a mind behind it, whatever it is.


For my Banestorm, that's pretty well what all of the religions are tapping into, although each of their mystics appear to be talking to their specific deity if they have any divinatory ability.
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