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Old 08-29-2016, 08:32 AM   #41
Gigermann
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by Erling View Post
Do they have high Rcl? Even 25x137 autocannon has Rcl 2. I suggested bonus cap only for high-Rcl weapons (i.e, Rcl 3+).
Sorry. Misread that.

I suppose high-Rcl weapons penalize themselves already with Min-ST, so the cap probably isn't necessary.
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Old 08-29-2016, 08:37 AM   #42
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by Gigermann View Post
Sorry. Misread that.

I suppose high-Rcl weapons penalize themselves already with Min-ST, so the cap probably isn't necessary.
M14, FN FAL and G3 all have MinST 10. Which means average adult man can shoot full-auto without penalties.
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Old 08-29-2016, 09:09 AM   #43
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

Is your point that increasing Rcl isn't enough of a penalty for "uncontrollable" firearms? There's a significant difference between Rcl 2 and Rcl 3 after all in terms of "rounds on target."

I'm not sure the current rules don't cover what you want: between higher MinST and Rcl, what else is needed?
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Old 08-29-2016, 09:12 AM   #44
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth View Post
This would be most appropriate for gatling guns which tend to shoot more accurate when the RoF increases and drops the Rcl to 1.
I've found it works very well in play, all the time. It gives mechanical weight to the observation that burst sizes of 3-4 rounds are the point where the design goals of increased chances of a single hit, conservation of ammo, and diminishing returns meet. It also scales the same as the Size-Speed Range table, which is important given GURPS reliance on that table for ranged combat.

But YMMV, of course. I've used it in my own games and it works very well for personal-scale weapons.
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Old 08-29-2016, 09:17 AM   #45
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

After the coffee has kicked in a bit…

The bonus to hit for "volume of fire" is based (according to whatever maths) on the number of individual projectiles passing through the target area, not the (in)accuracy of the delivery system—based on the usual treatment of area/suppression fire in the rules. For the autofire bonus to change, it would have to be so uncontrollable that it can't be entirely brought to bear on a single hex, which might be true at 700m in a 7.62mm v 5.56mm contest, but at 20m, there won't be any appreciable difference. I think the controllability problem between those cartridges as described, which you're attempting to compensate for, will generally fall below the resolution of the GURPS system.
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Old 08-29-2016, 09:23 AM   #46
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

The only places it might break noticibly are for area targets (which AFAICT there still isn't a good rule for) and extreme skill (which the Minute-of-Angle rule in Tactical Shooting fixes).
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Old 08-29-2016, 02:15 PM   #47
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by apoc527 View Post
Is your point that increasing Rcl isn't enough of a penalty for "uncontrollable" firearms? There's a significant difference between Rcl 2 and Rcl 3 after all in terms of "rounds on target."

I'm not sure the current rules don't cover what you want: between higher MinST and Rcl, what else is needed?
It's simple. In reality some firearms are better with burst/full-auto than others. "Better" means "give steeper increase to your chance to hit at least once" AND "give steeper increase to your chance to hit more than once". GURPS models the latter, but not the former.
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Old 08-29-2016, 02:27 PM   #48
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by Erling View Post
It's simple. In reality some firearms are better with burst/full-auto than others. "Better" means "give steeper increase to your chance to hit at least once" AND "give steeper increase to your chance to hit more than once". GURPS models the latter, but not the former.
Other than higher volume of fire, or increased accuracy, how is the former accomplished?
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Old 08-29-2016, 02:44 PM   #49
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Other than higher volume of fire, or increased accuracy, how is the former accomplished?
From context, presumably by producing a tighter pattern of automatic fire, which does not necessarily correspond with first-shot or single-shot accuracy, especially in the case of high rcl weapons.

(Whether a tighter fire pattern actually increases your chance to hit once depends, but a fire pattern shaped by, say, a gun bucking upwards under recoil is unlikely to be helpful.)
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Old 08-29-2016, 02:45 PM   #50
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
From context, presumably by producing a tighter pattern of automatic fire, which does not necessarily correspond with first-shot or single-shot accuracy, especially in the case of high rcl weapons.
Isn't high recoil and tight groups generally mutually exclusive?
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