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Old 08-26-2016, 06:34 AM   #11
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Yes, Shadowrun's rules are balls and have nothing to do with reality.

The best answer for "What Bonus Should Really High ST give versus Rcl?" is to count the Troll as always being Braced when firing (I think the recommended house rule was 'ST 5 higher than minimum', though you can flavor to taste). Further Bracing gives no benefit as a good portion of the Rcl stat comes from the weapon's tolerances and how it's parts inherently move when fired.
Actually, that sets you on a path to increasing Braced bonuses. Tactical Shooting added higher-value levels of Braced for guns mounted on flexible or tripod mounts (+2) and hard mounts (+4). A sufficiently strong and stable shooter obviously could replicate the benefits of those mountings, in theory. Bearing in mind that 'sufficiently strong and stable shooter' could be a multiton robot tank 'holding' the weapon in a turret mounting modeled as a Weapon Mount.

There also might be a case for being able to reduce Rcl, though not below 2. It's common for a round that produces Rcl 3+ in small arms to be fired from bigger, heavier weapons at Rcl 2. I suspect Rcl above 2 is actually assigned due to difficulty controlling the gun due to recoil, which is something the right kind of strength could actually counter.
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Old 08-26-2016, 06:55 AM   #12
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
....
There also might be a case for being able to reduce Rcl, though not below 2. It's common for a round that produces Rcl 3+ in small arms to be fired from bigger, heavier weapons at Rcl 2. I suspect Rcl above 2 is actually assigned due to difficulty controlling the gun due to recoil, which is something the right kind of strength could actually counter.
Yes quite.

The problem is RcL in GURPS is a bit of a general concept and as you point can be be effect by things outside of just the amount of propellant in the cartridge.


If having a gun that's twice as heavy can help a firer enjoy a reduced recoil effect due to the benefits of increased overall mass of the weapon on the felt effects of firing the round. Then I see no reason why other factors in that system can't as well.

The problem is MinST as is only impacts in one direction, the negative one.

Your penalised until you meet it, but beyond that there's no difference between a ST10 chap one handed firing a ST10 pistol or ST20 chap doing so. So there's no positive correlation. That hard cut off doesn't seem right to me.


I take the general point that being strong can't negate recoil entirely and magically allow you to fire FA and place all your later rounds on top of your first round, but then no one is arguing it should.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-26-2016 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 08-26-2016, 07:02 AM   #13
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
... as a good portion of the Rcl stat comes from the weapon's tolerances and how it's parts inherently move when fired.
It can do (stuff like the Kriss Super V, or the various specialised guns that qualify for the # rule would be in GURPS terms strong examples of that), but it can also just be as simple as the FN MAG is three times as heavy as the FN FAL.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-26-2016 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 08-26-2016, 07:47 AM   #14
HANS
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by Erling View Post
I don't mean that basic rules are bad or something, but I'm curious if it's possible and playable to reflect full-auto/burst controllability in such way. Opinions invited.
Basically, you don't understand how full-automatic fire works in real-life. You don't start firing a burst and then somehow manage to walk it into the target. Instead, you sight onto the target and then start the burst. Thus, it makes no difference how controllable the weapon is for the first shot of a burst, which in real-life very often is the only shot of a burst that hits anyway (especially in handheld weapons). Instead, the controllability of the weapon matters for all the shots in the burst but the first one. Which is exactly how the GURPS rules work. So, no, your proposed rules don't improve the realism at all. The GURPS Rapid Fire bonus kind of breaks down when very large numbers of rounds are fired (very high RoF). However, that has nothing to do with controllability and very little with the Rcl stat.

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Old 08-26-2016, 08:54 AM   #15
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by HANS View Post
Basically, you don't understand how full-automatic fire works in real-life. You don't start firing a burst and then somehow manage to walk it into the target. Instead, you sight onto the target and then start the burst. Thus, it makes no difference how controllable the weapon is for the first shot of a burst, which in real-life very often is the only shot of a burst that hits anyway (especially in handheld weapons). Instead, the controllability of the weapon matters for all the shots in the burst but the first one. Which is exactly how the GURPS rules work. So, no, your proposed rules don't improve the realism at all. The GURPS Rapid Fire bonus kind of breaks down when very large numbers of rounds are fired (very high RoF). However, that has nothing to do with controllability and very little with the Rcl stat.

Cheers

HANS
What you're saying here isn't at all compatible with the GURPS rapid fire rules. Rapid fire in GURPS does serve to increase the chance of producing at least one hit. Indeed, that's the main effect of firing more rounds, once you get beyond semi-automatic fire.
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:59 AM   #16
Erling
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Basically, you don't understand how full-automatic fire works in real-life.
I must admit that.

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Originally Posted by HANS View Post
Instead, the controllability of the weapon matters for all the shots in the burst but the first one. Which is exactly how the GURPS rules work. So, no, your proposed rules don't improve the realism at all.
Still Rapid Fire bonus can make the difference between hit and miss. RoF hardly can affect accuracy of the first shot, so it probably affects chance of hitting with other bullets (with at least one of the other bullets). And chance to hit with other bullets in reality seems to be affected by controllability.

Many articles state that US soldiers weren't recommended to shoot M14 in full-auto mode because it was impossible to maintain accuracy and control. How can it be translated into GURPS language? Did generals mean "don't use full-auto, as you won't be able to hit the same enemy more than once anyway"? Or "don't use full-auto, as it won't help you to hit the enemy"? Or that was something related to suppressive fire? But Rcl doesn't even affect Suppressive Fire effective skill as well.
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Last edited by Erling; 08-26-2016 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 08-26-2016, 09:19 AM   #17
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by Erling View Post
Many articles state that US soldiers weren't recommended to shoot M14 in full-auto mode because it was impossible to maintain accuracy and control. How can it be translated into GURPS language? Did generals mean "don't use full-auto, as you won't be able to hit the same enemy more than once anyway"? Or that was something related to suppressive fire? But Rcl doesn't even affect Suppressive Fire effective skill as well.
Well, full auto fire is generally not encouraged with any rifle except in very special circumstances. For that matter, machine guns are usually fired in (manually) limited bursts. Continuous fire just doesn't work well for a lot of things, especially in small arms. That's probably part of it, especially since the M-14 was an early weapon, didn't have limited bursts (I think?) and the hope of automatic personal weapons working out well hadn't been dulled yet.

The usual description does suggest that the powerful round did something to make full-auto even less practical though.

Speculatively, if the kick is actually driving your aimpoint off target, what that would do is give you quickly and sharply diminishing returns on rapid fire. To be harsh, arbitrary, and simple, perhaps you simply can't get more than +1 for RoF...beyond that point the extra rounds aren't going anywhere near the target, so they don't help you hit.
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:10 AM   #18
Erling
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Well, full auto fire is generally not encouraged with any rifle except in very special circumstances.
Indeed. Which makes GURPS Rapid Fire rules a simplification, as Rapid Fire bonus is to be applied regardless of the distance. Generally I'm totally OK with that, but in this discussion it's good to mention limited helpfulness of full-auto in reality.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Speculatively, if the kick is actually driving your aimpoint off target, what that would do is give you quickly and sharply diminishing returns on rapid fire. To be harsh, arbitrary, and simple, perhaps you simply can't get more than +1 for RoF...beyond that point the extra rounds aren't going anywhere near the target, so they don't help you hit.
Yes. Which, in the case of M14, effectively equals to reducing Rapid Fire bonus by 1, as it has RoF 12 (-1+2=1).
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:33 AM   #19
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

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Originally Posted by Erling View Post
Indeed. Which makes GURPS Rapid Fire rules a simplification, as Rapid Fire bonus is to be applied regardless of the distance. Generally I'm totally OK with that, but in this discussion it's good to mention limited helpfulness of full-auto in reality.
Distance isn't really a problem.

The combination of distance and target SM might be.
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Originally Posted by Erling View Post
Yes. Which, in the case of M14, effectively equals to reducing Rapid Fire bonus by 1, as it has RoF 12 (-1+2=1).
It isn't equivalent. Capping rapid fire bonus would mean that you'd want to fire just enough shots (5?) to get the best allowed bonus. Reducing the bonus would mean that you'd need to fire more shots to get that +1. (Also, if you don't assume a minimum 'bonus' of zero it would give a penalty to hit on single shots, which is obviously unwanted.)
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:38 AM   #20
Erling
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

Oh, now I see. That's right.
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