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Old 07-11-2016, 11:40 AM   #31
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
I'd propose the following changes for realism:

1. Subtract 2 from all weapon damage.
2. Add Trained Strength to Weapon Damage (e.g. Technical Grappling), so that a skilled individual gets those two points back.
3. Change Swing damage to a flat thrust +2.
http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/...ed-st-and.html
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Old 07-11-2016, 11:43 AM   #32
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The claim that strength is unimportant to melee combat skills is generally a claim made by people who want to sell lessons in melee combat skills to people who don't want to do strength work. Strength, at least in specific muscle groups, is not really necessary for accuracy, but it absolutely affects power and speed.
A lot of it is just vagueness about what "important" means. Strength isn't necessary - relatively weak people can kill you, but it also isn't useless - strong people can kill you more easily. Is something that is useful but not required "important". Depends on context doesn't it?
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Old 07-11-2016, 11:43 AM   #33
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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The claim that strength is unimportant to melee combat skills is generally a claim made by people who want to sell lessons in melee combat skills to people who don't want to do strength work. Strength, at least in specific muscle groups, is not really necessary for accuracy, but it absolutely affects power and speed.
Yes, this. And endurance, which is what you will need if you want to throw more than a few blows without sucking wind hard.
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Old 07-11-2016, 01:20 PM   #34
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
That's what cinematic rules are for. The basic mechanics should model verisimilitude as much as possible.
I want that too, but TPTB have regularly said Gurps is for "heroic average" not "simulationist" gaming. Thankfully we have Pyramid to hold so many optional but more realistic rules for those of us that really want them.
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Old 07-11-2016, 02:12 PM   #35
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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conciser this you are likely impacting the target a lot more than the dice would indicate, it's just your blows are glancing off or striking protection at an angle that is absorbed by the protection.
Nah, GURPS combat rules don't work like that. A miss really is an outright miss (although there can be room for interpreting it as a "hesitation"). Otherwise you'd get an attack bonus against foes with insufficient armor for such a glance to occur (or a penalty against foes with such armor).
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Old 07-11-2016, 02:36 PM   #36
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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Those skeletal deformities are not a result of strength training but were caused by actually using the bow.
And I think it's fair to say that "practice with a longbow (of a large draw weight)" counts as strength training. A very particular form of strength training, but definitely strength training.
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Old 07-11-2016, 02:40 PM   #37
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

And thanks for everyone's input thus far.
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Old 07-11-2016, 04:25 PM   #38
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
That said, I agree with most HEMA people that strength is FAR less important with swords than it is with unarmed fighting.
Skill is very important for unarmed fighting too. Surely more than strength. Both are important, of course (otherwise there wouldn't be so much muscle training in every martial arts).

But true kime (the most important effectiveness of a punch or a kick), is more a matter of knowing exactly when to relax your muscles and when to contract them than a matter of being generally strong. And kime can only be improved with experience ... A lot of experience.
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Old 07-11-2016, 04:33 PM   #39
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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When it comes to modelling humans, especially one's who excel at something I try and go for a holistic approach that brings in several factors. Because the reality is when your training very hard at something there tends to be a lot of synergy with several factors.
Yes. And this is precisely where GURPS is in accordance with reality.

To build a good bowman, swordsman, karateka (or any other kind of warrior) character, basic attributes are not sufficient; neither is skill; nor are advantages. The best is a holistic synergy between the three.
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Old 07-11-2016, 04:38 PM   #40
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The claim that strength is unimportant to melee combat skills is generally a claim made by people who want to sell lessons in melee combat skills to people who don't want to do strength work. Strength, at least in specific muscle groups, is not really necessary for accuracy, but it absolutely affects power and speed.
Of course. If it was not true, there weren't so many hours of muscle training in every martial art training! But the problem is precisely these very "specific muscle groups" vs the generic GURPS basic attribute named "Strength".
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