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Old 07-05-2016, 06:58 AM   #11
Whitelaughter
 
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Default Re: In Nomine....does it have a "Pro-Heaven" bias?

On the contrary, a major problem I've found with IN is that has a "pro-Hell" bias; so much effort has been made to make demons playable that playing an angel 'straight' - ie wanting to kick all demons of Earth - can easily degenerate into coming across as a psychopath. The Purity Crusade (the expulsion of dream creatures from the Corporeal) is another example where a straightforward desire to defend humanity is almost impossible to defend. Several demonic bands, notably the Impudites and Lilim, are actively beneficial to society, preventing needless deaths and enforcing oaths respectively.

When you get a copy of Heaven and Hell (an essential rule book that is an excellent read) you'll get to see how wildly different each principality of Hell is. In Shal-Mari, humans are 'free' but generally bankrupt due to the countless temptations they are surrounded by. In Perdition the Damned are couch potatoes watching their favourite soapies, while Stygia is an anarchist's dream - ie, Hell.
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:22 PM   #12
PenitentDemon
 
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Default Re: In Nomine....does it have a "Pro-Heaven" bias?

the GMs Guide had a whole section saying "Backwards In nomine" (Making angels the bad guys, and Demons heroic rebels)

As well as Light High contrast (Default image, demons Evil, Angels Good, and the angels are sure to win coming in noble with great courage and willingness to die.)

Light Low Contrast (Theirs not much difference morally between demons and angels, and a rather wacky feel, this leads to a Disgaea Esque vibe.)

Dark High Contrast. (Angels are the good guys, but are in a desperate struggle against the forces of hell)

Dark Low contrast ( Demons are as evil as ever, but Heavens little better with many archangels being sanctimonious, and the Seraphim Council being overly buerucratic.


(BTW: That list is from memory)
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Old 07-06-2016, 11:49 PM   #13
Moonsight
 
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Default Re: In Nomine....does it have a "Pro-Heaven" bias?

Upon reading the material further, turns out that In Nomine does have a "Pro-Heaven" bias especially how they define "Good" and "Evil" to be "Selflessness" and "Selfishness" which basically Angels are more 'compassionate' than Demons who are inheritly selfish for one example which for example, if playing a Demon do you really have to be a selfish backstabbing I mean a really awful person? If so then I don't like where this is going at all which is once again casting Demons as shallow "Evil" characters that should be unplayable unless you're okay playing as a manipulative abusive self-centered backstabbing narcissist (which actually fits Yahweh's personality more even the books say that he's "Selflessness" or "he can't be selfish because he is everything which is part of divinity" which I entirely disagree on that part especially if you read the bible that he's actually a mass murdering narcissistic abuser who enslaves everyone to his will).

Basically this game doesn't really align to the Gnostic themes or having Demons having the best interest and it also says that Demons enjoy torturing souls for enjoyment instead of judgement (matter of fact I never liked the idea of Demons torturing souls for the sole purpose of "Fun" at all especially when you put things into context of what "burning hell" actually means "burning lost for God") and also for example Andrealphus treating humans like toys and playthings and plus the aspect of "Dominator and Submissive" in relationships which is what I really reject since Lust should be about having sex for pleasure not for pro-creation and such.

Basically I don't like how this game is written which doesn't really align to my Gnostic feelings towards Abrahamic faiths at all.

Is there anyway to rewrite the game? Oh BTW, Heaven and Hell shouldn't be the only afterlives nor should Yahweh be the only Deity either and also Buddhists shouldn't enter the Christian heaven especially get's more problematic that the book outright states that the Buddhist afterlife is not true as Dominic cannot tell them which is offensive at best. Basically what about porting the Buddhist Cosmology instead to have it actually exist?

Last edited by Moonsight; 07-07-2016 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:00 AM   #14
Flyndaran
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Default Re: In Nomine....does it have a "Pro-Heaven" bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonsight View Post
...
Basically I don't like how this game is written which doesn't really align to my Gnostic feelings towards Abrahamic faiths at all.
No one has EVER said it fits ANY real world religion other than in the broadest most basic of ways.
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:15 AM   #15
Moonsight
 
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Default Re: In Nomine....does it have a "Pro-Heaven" bias?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
No one has EVER said it fits ANY real world religion other than in the broadest most basic of ways.
Perhaps by "Broadest" you mean it's the "Post-Gnostic" Abrahamic myths that trying to find a way to present Angels as "Good" and Demons as "Evil" which not only leads cut out cardboard characters but also it ignores the context of what Abrahamic faiths especially the context of "Good" and "Evil" is really about which historically it has enabled patriarchy, witchhunts, the crusades, etc which according to this game I imagine, they're all justified which is disgusting.

Anyways, I'm more in the favor of presenting Yahweh as a outright antagonist who is directly responsible for many countless atrocities under his name and thrives on it because he's a Storm-War God or the "Lord of Hosts" which is what he originally was in Canaanite Mythology which I actually came up with story that he lead a "one man revolution" using his army of angels which he actually murdered his own pantheon because he felt should be the only God in existence and usurped power after murdering his Father El to take over as the "God most High" and now has his sights on other Pantheons....Although I'm not so sure if In Nomine lets me do that...

Of course though what about twisting the definitions of "Empathy" and "Selfishlessness" and "God is Everything!" that he's actually a narcissistic tyrant who enforces mindless conformity on his subjects so he can smile upon it while it's feeding his own ego that is.

Last edited by Moonsight; 07-07-2016 at 12:30 AM.
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Old 07-07-2016, 01:24 AM   #16
Methariel
 
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Default Re: In Nomine....does it have a "Pro-Heaven" bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonsight View Post
[...]

Anyways, I'm more in the favor of presenting Yahweh as a outright antagonist who is directly responsible for many countless atrocities under his name and thrives on it because he's a Storm-War God or the "Lord of Hosts" which is what he originally was in Canaanite Mythology which I actually came up with story that he lead a "one man revolution" using his army of angels which he actually murdered his own pantheon because he felt should be the only God in existence and usurped power after murdering his Father El to take over as the "God most High" and now has his sights on other Pantheons....Although I'm not so sure if In Nomine lets me do that...

[...]
As has already been mentioned several times, In Nomine lends itself to more than one style of play, theme, or interpretation. So, you can have a game with the baseline you mentioned, of course.

Another thing entirely is the question if that baseline is "canon". That's something I don't believe to be true. But who - besides Yves and Kronos - knows that for sure, given CDaU? To me, that version sounds more like one of the variants of the "Ethereal Heresy" being true - in your campaign. And there's nothing wrong with that.

A third, and, again, separate, matter is the question of fun. Regarding roleplaying games that's probably the most important one. You just have to answer the question for yourself: "Can I have fun playing a game in a way that I have every reason to believe is not 'canon' regarding that game's premise?"

If the answer is "yes", go on, play, and have fun! If it's "no", I think it'd be better if you didn't play, then. There's no reason to play a game you won't have fun with out of your own free will. And I think you should answer that question for yourself very carefully, to make sure your beliefs won't be "rubbed the wrong way" when reading the source material to prepare adventures for the characters.

And if you answer with "yes", make sure that your players would have fun with such a campaign, too. Don't just tell them: "We're going to play In Nomine." That might give them the impression they're going to play heroic angels fighting the tidal wave of Evil, scheming diabolicals trying to become the top dog in a given area, ready to sell their allies if it furthers their agenda, or hapless humans caught in the crossfire of a millenia old war waged by inhuman beings as old as Creation itself. I think, especially with In Nomine, being on the same page as your players are is of the utmost importance.


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Old 07-07-2016, 04:23 AM   #17
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Default Re: In Nomine....does it have a "Pro-Heaven" bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonsight View Post
Basically I don't like how this game is written which doesn't really align to my Gnostic feelings towards Abrahamic faiths at all.
This thread might be worth looking at, for a little discussion and further references: In Nomine without Abrahamicism as a basis?
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Old 07-07-2016, 06:10 AM   #18
alexondria
 
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Default Re: In Nomine....does it have a "Pro-Heaven" bias?

You can definitely do different themes.

Afterlife: In canon devoted pagans can end up in the ethereal realms of the god they followed.

My most successful game started with Fall of the Malakite and took a hard left out of canon. The rough theme of my game was a group of Angels and Demons that had to work together for trumped up reasons discovering that both Heaven and Hell had lost sight of what they were fighting for. Demons had started fighting the noble fight for freedom and free will. Angels had started fighting the noble fight for justice and compassion. Sadly at the current point in history they'd both lost sight of that and were just fighting to win. Demons were torturing souls for essence. Angels were allowing killing they should have stopped because it was for the greater good. The party actually ended up rallying the ethereals with Isis to force a new power structure for humanities benefit.
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Old 07-07-2016, 07:56 AM   #19
Moonsight
 
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Default Re: In Nomine....does it have a "Pro-Heaven" bias?

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Originally Posted by alexondria View Post
Demons had started fighting the noble fight for freedom and free will. Angels had started fighting the noble fight for justice and compassion.
Perhaps I can see why they lost sight for what they're fighting for because it depends on how you define "Freedom", "Free Will", "Justice" and "Compassion" to be which they're all subjective terms that can mean anything hence you know how it turns out....

Last edited by Moonsight; 07-07-2016 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 07-07-2016, 09:52 AM   #20
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Default Re: In Nomine....does it have a "Pro-Heaven" bias?

Also with the view you want to play you might enjoy Demon the Fallen. The backstory is that they fell trying to help humanity and then got locked away after some bad stuff happened. You have different factions that range from wanting forgiveness from god, wanting to protect humans from anything including god, bitter toward humans because they lost so much and they aren't even grateful, to wanting to destroy the world they are so bitter.
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