Terminator in the Ogre Universe

eltf177 · 04-13-2016, 10:44 AM

Post deleted.

Buzzardo · 04-13-2016, 05:34 PM

In the Ogreverse, AI (in the sense of a machine as smart as a person and that can autonomously interact with its environment) can't be put in a case small enough to make a human-sized machine. However, the Ogreverse may be overstating how much hardware AI requires. I suspect that, once we make the necessary breakthroughs, my phone may well be smarter than I am (if I'm still around - we're a long way from the movie version of AI, for reasons having nothing to do with size).

HeatDeath · 04-14-2016, 12:13 AM

One of the really unique things about Ogre, even for a late 70's hex-based wargame, is its combination of scale and unit-size. It is a tactical boardgame, with each chit representing only one armor unit, but unlike most tactical boardgames Ogre plays out at a genuinely large scale. 1500 meters per hex, only one unit (typically) per hex, and 4-minute turns. Additionally, in striking contrast to the vast majority of modern tactical games (descending from Battletech and Star Fleet Battles, by and large), the individual units are very simple: only 4 numbers to describe a unit. You're effectively playing the game from 35000 feet up, so to speak.

At this reduced level of detail per unit, it is actually quite hard to differentiate units of the same approximate strength, speed, and resiliency. All modern MBTs have basically the exact same stats - there is no meaningful difference between an M1A2 and a T-90 in this game engine, for example.

What this means, conversely, is that it is very easy to headcanon different units, even from different universes, into the existing game units. Especially when we're discussing infantry and infantry-like units. Since the number of individual soldiers in a squad is kept carefully undefined, who's to say an INF squad isn't a platoon of T-800 endoskeletons, or a point of Battletech Elementals for that matter?

Your unit suggestions are thought provoking. A squad of endoskeleton infantry would, I think, have a similar attack to a platoon of powersuited infantry. I think they might lose mobility though - powersuits as described in canon can hover and jump/fly significant distances under their own power. The defense is the most interesting question: while they're undoubtedly more resilient than unarmored humans, their physical resilience might only buy them as much defense as the D1 a single powersuit squad buys with their BPC armor and ECM. Stacked squads of endoskeletons - a la a 3-strength Ogre INF piece - might not gain any additional defense either.

The tactical role of a dedicated, cheap anti-infantry vehicle is not something the existing units have explored, really. There is an archaic (modern-day with minimal enhancements) IFV in Ogre Minatures, but this seems quite different, and possibly quite tactically interesting.

Thinking further about a cheap dedicated anti-infantry vehicle in the board game, I can think of a few more requirements: I would like it to have an attack strength that is at least 3, and ideally a multiple of 3. This would be very useful for digging 3-strength (and therefore 3-defense) infantry pieces out of cover. I would also like it to have a movement of at least M2 - it needs to be able to keep pace with infantry, and ideally outrun them, at least in clear terrain. Taking your statline as a starting point, and using the Cobb Calculator to figure the cost:

M2 D2 A2 R1 (AP only, doubles in overruns, moves like a light tank) -> 1.45 VPs / 0.5 AUs.

I can purchase 4 of these to go up against a 3-strength infantry platoon. They can dump 8 attack factors into the hex, which isn't quite enough if the infantry are dug into a town, and barely enough if they're dug into forest.

M2 D2 A3 R1 (AP only, doubles in overruns, moves like a light tank) -> 2 VPs / 0.5 AUs.

I can purchase 3 of these for the price of an infantry platoon. Now I can make a 1-1 attack against a 3-strength dug into a town. Now we're cooking with lithium deuteride! (It's one of the key ingredients that makes a H-Bomb an order of magnitude more explosive given the same quantity of fissibles. Look it up.) On the downside, they can make a 1-1 attack right back.

I would really like to have a defense value of 6. Virtually unheard of in game terms (only the Superheavy Tank comes close, at 5, and many consider it to be overpowered), but it would reduce the counter-fire from the town-entrenched 3-strength INF platoon to a paltry 1-2. I don't know if I can get there in the Cobb calculator, while keeping this thing down to less than an AU in cost, let alone less than 0.5 AU.

And even if I could, this thing is starting to look like a Superheavy Tank with the big guns pulled and replaced with AP guns and more armor. Maybe it looks a little different too, like a rhomboid-shaped WW1 British Mark V. Come to think of it, the purely AP armament matches the all-machine gun armament of the "Female" variants of those tanks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_V_tank), so there's a real historical precedent here. It's funny how thinking about a novel unit design pulled from a fictional backdrop can lead us right back to a unit with a real historical precedent:

Mark "L" Superheavy Tank (Female - Anti-Personnel):
M2 D6 A3 R1 (AP only, doubles in overruns, moves like a light tank)
2.67 VPs / 0.5 AUs.

[Represent using a WWI British Mark V (Female) tank miniature.]

Misplaced Buckeye · 04-15-2016, 09:35 AM

After reading all the comments this seems like it would work better in Battlesuit. Comments?

HeatDeath · 04-15-2016, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eltf177

The Mark L is nice but expensive. But I can see Nihon building the lighter units in mass to use against dug-in Chinese Militia...

It is too expensive. For these things to have a good value proposition, I really need to be able to buy a least 9 attack factors worth of them for 1 AU. But I don't think an A5 D6 R1 M2 AP-only unit fits into one AU.

Later:

Actually, it turns out it does:

Mark "L" Superheavy Tank (Female - Anti-Personnel) [Revised]:
M2 D6 A5 R1 (AP only, does not double in overruns, moves like a light tank)
2.95 VPs / 0.5 AUs.

[Represent using a WWI British Mark V (Female) tank miniature.]

04-13-2016, 10:44 AM	#1
eltf177 Join Date: Dec 2007	Terminator in the Ogre Universe Post deleted. Last edited by eltf177; 07-24-2017 at 04:35 PM.

04-13-2016, 05:34 PM	#2
Buzzardo Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Austin, TX	Re: Terminator in the Ogre Universe In the Ogreverse, AI (in the sense of a machine as smart as a person and that can autonomously interact with its environment) can't be put in a case small enough to make a human-sized machine. However, the Ogreverse may be overstating how much hardware AI requires. I suspect that, once we make the necessary breakthroughs, my phone may well be smarter than I am (if I'm still around - we're a long way from the movie version of AI, for reasons having nothing to do with size). __________________ Play *Ogre*? Want an interactive record sheet? Want a random dungeon? How about some tables for that? How about a random encounter?

04-14-2016, 12:13 AM	#3
HeatDeath Join Date: May 2012	Re: Terminator in the Ogre Universe One of the really unique things about Ogre, even for a late 70's hex-based wargame, is its combination of scale and unit-size. It is a tactical boardgame, with each chit representing only one armor unit, but unlike most tactical boardgames Ogre plays out at a genuinely large scale. 1500 meters per hex, only one unit (typically) per hex, and 4-minute turns. Additionally, in striking contrast to the vast majority of modern tactical games (descending from Battletech and Star Fleet Battles, by and large), the individual units are very simple: only 4 numbers to describe a unit. You're effectively playing the game from 35000 feet up, so to speak. At this reduced level of detail per unit, it is actually quite hard to differentiate units of the same approximate strength, speed, and resiliency. All modern MBTs have basically the exact same stats - there is no meaningful difference between an M1A2 and a T-90 in this game engine, for example. What this means, conversely, is that it is very easy to headcanon different units, even from different universes, into the existing game units. Especially when we're discussing infantry and infantry-like units. Since the number of individual soldiers in a squad is kept carefully undefined, who's to say an INF squad isn't a platoon of T-800 endoskeletons, or a point of Battletech Elementals for that matter? Your unit suggestions are thought provoking. A squad of endoskeleton infantry would, I think, have a similar attack to a platoon of powersuited infantry. I think they might lose mobility though - powersuits as described in canon can hover and jump/fly significant distances under their own power. The defense is the most interesting question: while they're undoubtedly more resilient than unarmored humans, their physical resilience might only buy them as much defense as the D1 a single powersuit squad buys with their BPC armor and ECM. Stacked squads of endoskeletons - a la a 3-strength Ogre INF piece - might not gain any additional defense either. The tactical role of a dedicated, cheap anti-infantry vehicle is not something the existing units have explored, really. There is an archaic (modern-day with minimal enhancements) IFV in Ogre Minatures, but this seems quite different, and possibly quite tactically interesting. Thinking further about a cheap dedicated anti-infantry vehicle in the board game, I can think of a few more requirements: I would like it to have an attack strength that is at least 3, and ideally a multiple of 3. This would be very useful for digging 3-strength (and therefore 3-defense) infantry pieces out of cover. I would also like it to have a movement of at least M2 - it needs to be able to keep pace with infantry, and ideally outrun them, at least in clear terrain. Taking your statline as a starting point, and using the Cobb Calculator to figure the cost: M2 D2 A2 R1 (AP only, doubles in overruns, moves like a light tank) -> 1.45 VPs / 0.5 AUs. I can purchase 4 of these to go up against a 3-strength infantry platoon. They can dump 8 attack factors into the hex, which isn't quite enough if the infantry are dug into a town, and barely enough if they're dug into forest. M2 D2 A3 R1 (AP only, doubles in overruns, moves like a light tank) -> 2 VPs / 0.5 AUs. I can purchase 3 of these for the price of an infantry platoon. Now I can make a 1-1 attack against a 3-strength dug into a town. Now we're cooking with lithium deuteride! (It's one of the key ingredients that makes a H-Bomb an order of magnitude more explosive given the same quantity of fissibles. Look it up.) On the downside, they can make a 1-1 attack right back. I would really like to have a defense value of 6. Virtually unheard of in game terms (only the Superheavy Tank comes close, at 5, and many consider it to be overpowered), but it would reduce the counter-fire from the town-entrenched 3-strength INF platoon to a paltry 1-2. I don't know if I can get there in the Cobb calculator, while keeping this thing down to less than an AU in cost, let alone less than 0.5 AU. And even if I could, this thing is starting to look like a Superheavy Tank with the big guns pulled and replaced with AP guns and more armor. Maybe it looks a little different too, like a rhomboid-shaped WW1 British Mark V. Come to think of it, the purely AP armament matches the all-machine gun armament of the "Female" variants of those tanks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_V_tank), so there's a real historical precedent here. It's funny how thinking about a novel unit design pulled from a fictional backdrop can lead us right back to a unit with a real historical precedent: Mark "L" Superheavy Tank (Female - Anti-Personnel): M2 D6 A3 R1 (AP only, doubles in overruns, moves like a light tank) 2.67 VPs / 0.5 AUs. [Represent using a WWI British Mark V (Female) tank miniature.]

04-15-2016, 09:35 AM	#4
Misplaced Buckeye Join Date: May 2015	Re: Terminator in the Ogre Universe After reading all the comments this seems like it would work better in Battlesuit. Comments?