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Old 04-06-2016, 07:07 PM   #11
jason taylor
 
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

If this is an After-the-end game, perhaps "scavanger" can be an occupational template. Their job is to obtain what can be obtained from desolate places, and negotiate or fight with rivals of their kind for material. Because of their wider array of knowledge perhaps scavangers are often elected as settlement leaders.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:03 AM   #12
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

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Bunkertech largely finished

Other ideas
- cabinet farms.
- homestead
- small scale
- mall
- full scale bunker food production
- nomads
- dry environment
- various TLS

Quite an interesting exercise, anyone else have any ideas or suggestions they want looked at? On a side note about half of the algae types exist already.
Your Dalton Mountain fallout shelter is great and all, but I'd like a larger mature TL9 example to work from. The kind of shelter that's comfortable enough that I could have PCs be from it and treat them like people from before "The End" but in an after the end scenario set many years after "The End". Or for example make a campaign that's built around trying to find such a place and gain entrance becouse it's just that much better then the outside world.

I'm not sure just how extensive your expertise are, but it would also be great to have dedicated list of trade goods for the settlements. Like what kind of "cash crops" it can make or the tools it should be able to produce.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:46 AM   #13
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

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The Dalton Mountain fallout shelter
snippet
Two questions.

Firstly could you elaborate on just how the Bun unit's product differs from actual bread in taste, look, texture and smell?

Secondly whats the logistical leap to go from growing sea monkeys to actuarial fish? I recall watching a TED talk that mentioned sustainable fish farming and mussels, clupeids and tilapias have very high rates of conversion from plant protein to animal protein.

Video: https://www.ted.com/talks/paul_green...ge=en#t-622180

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Old 04-07-2016, 03:49 AM   #14
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

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Firstly could you elaborate on just how the Bun unit's product differs from actual bread in taste, look, texture and smell?
The Bunkertech units are a fallout inspired equipment selection for a 1960s TL8 or 9. With no yeast or gluten the Buns (tm) would be at best like a stale mcdonalds basic hamburger bun. Think of the cheapest bread available.

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Secondly whats the logistical leap to go from growing sea monkeys to actuarial fish? I recall watching a TED talk that mentioned sustainable fish farming and mussels, clupeids and tilapias have very high rates of conversion from plant protein to animal protein.
The brine shrimp where included because some varieties can remain dormant for decades. Larger fish farms require "live" stock so they didn't fit the Bunkertech example. I have fish farms lined up for the "cabinet" farming section. I wanted to review bio-tech before getting too carried away. At TL9 cryogenic fish spawn sounds feasible, some natural species can last a long time on ice as it is. Speaking of cold, cichlids including tilapia would not be ideal species for subterranean aquaculture due to heating requirements.

When it comes to trade goods I am slowing adding detail to the other settlements, but I want to leave them fairly open for who ever wants to use them. The produce and requires are there for traders and people selling their loot for food.

Rather than "cash" crops the ATE example maybe better thought of as "investment" crops, that is to say ones that last.

TL 9 write up is coming.
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Old 04-07-2016, 05:28 AM   #15
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

The U.N.W.F.P. Subterranean Agriculture long term viability program, AKA Salt
Description
At the end of the decaying road you come to an overhang of rock, a man made wall seamlessly extends a dozen meters up and twice that across. Recessed into an alcove is a door with no visible lock or handle.

Assumptions
- TL 9, Large complex.
- Dedicated to long term habitation.
- Rather than using on a whole range of techniques for each stage of the agricultural system the facility focuses on just one technique.
- Big money operation
- Skilled people involved
- Out of the way location
- Power generation is either a combination of solar and fission (requiring periodic refueling) or a geothermal bore.

Notes
- TL9 biotechnology provides lots of options so not all will be explored.
- This could just as easily be a subterranean farm attached to a larger facility.

Tank production

These are large facilities that house multiple high surface area vats (Most photosynthetic algae only grows in the first 75mm of water).
- Algae for bio-fuel, alcohol and plastics.
- Algae for animal food.
- Algae for backup food.
- Fungal protein.
- Algae and bacteria for filtration purposes.
- Waste processing.
- Atmospheric processing (depending on End)

Crops

The crops are grown in a "Bio system" to maintain a complex environment. This environmental complexity adds to the robustness and durability of the system. Most staple foods are grown in a steady rotation. Floating gardens incorporating algae, insects, invertebrates, fish and shellfish are the mainstay of the vegetable production system. Under precisely tuned lights long troughs of nutrient rich water are filled with a variety of cold tolerant fish and shellfish. In one end of the trough young plants are either placed in floating containers or are attached to floats if they suit a hydroponic approach. Each of the containers absorbs just the right amount of water for the plants and organisms within. GE endophytes on the plants steadily provide all the elements required for growth in the most easily absorbed form. Each new plant pushes the older plants closer to the far end of the trough. When the plants get to the far end of the trough the plant is harvested, the organisms within are fed to the fish and the growing medium is washed and cycles to a new growing system to avoid toxin buildup.

A mechanical version of this system is used for plants that desire a dryer climate or suit more intensive cultivation, cereals for example.

Mushroom farms are present as well as a range of more traditional gardens growing medically useful plants.

Orchards
Perennials are grown and trained into espalier (to grow flat against the wall) along many interior walls. The lighting system adds light in the green spectrum whenever people are present. GE Insects are present including subterranean bees (a solitary variety). You can walk along a pleasantly leafy corridor and pick fruit year round. The perennials grown in a gravely medium that allows nutrient rich water to flow freely through.

Livestock
The use of frozen sperm, eggs and embryos results in a "four dimensional" breeding program to maintain viable genetic material for the widest range of animals possible, for example a cow has artificial insemination to produce a calf, the embryo/zygote of this calf is extracted and stored while an unrelated calf extracted 20 years before is implanted in its place. This will maintain the genetic health and diversity for many times longer than mere freezing.
Feed lots are maintained for all commonly farmed species and several useful non farmed species.

Mineral extraction
Plants need the following elements, nitrogen, phosphorus , potassium, calcium, sulfur, magnesium, boron, chlorine, manganese, iron, zinc, copper, molybdenum, nickel. Nitrogen is extracted form the air by GE bacteria, the small losses that the biosystem's make are covered to some extent by water-blasting the local bedrock. But no closed system is perfect and sooner of later someone will have to get more.

Skills present
All TL9 relating to plants and animals.

Produces

- Food, lots of it, no need for food preservation with refrigeration and abundance though.
- Genetics,
- Bio-fuel and plastics
- Poisons
- medicine
- Soil
- Full range of animal products

Requires
- Raw materials
- Knowledge of the outside world and samples
- Fissionable materials if it relies on a reactor
- Sulfur and a small amount of water if no Geothermal bore is present,
- Oddly enough, Salt
- Some types of manufacturing equipment
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Old 04-07-2016, 09:55 AM   #16
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

I like what you've done, in this thread, rather a lot. Here's an interesting scenario, for you:

Assumptions
-TL 8 technology available at the time of the collapse
-Area is a temperate rainforest (two varieties -- most in the world are coastal, but it could also be one of the pockets in the Appalachians, or the Changai Mountains)
-Humanity is hunted by an enemy that has early TL9 assets.
--A rogue AI, perhaps.
--Possibly aliens who either arrived in an ark vessel, or got FTL early, or shifted over from another dimension.
-Alternatively, humanity is hunted by reasonably intelligent, winged, monsters or mutants.
-The enemies use two methods to target or hunt.
--Clusters of heat signatures significantly higher than ambient temperatures
--Interruptions (especially straight lines) in the physical geography

Thoughts

I'd think the situation would require a focus on foods that grow natively, planted in what I almost think of as "elvish agriculture." Rather than carve out areas in the forest to dedicate to foodstuffs, the existing biome is shaped to maximize useful plants while minimizing anything recognizable as "agriculture." Interruptions of the forest canopy are especially to be avoided.

At the same time, human beings need to work together for defense against actively hostile enemies, but must avoid clustering in large settlements.

So, what sorts of crops would work best (I'm betting grains aren't available, except for wild rice, possibly), what sorts of livestock could be supported (pigs would probably work best, and perhaps small cattle, but horses are right out), and what would be the population density?
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:34 PM   #17
Minuteman37
 
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

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The U.N.W.F.P. Subterranean Agriculture long term viability program, AKA Salt
snippet
This is fantastic E, what's the minimum size such a facilitate could be and still be self sufficient? Also how much surplus could one expect from that size?


I have an idea for a game whose PCs were residence of a place like this that accepted a band of survivors inside. Unfortunately do to the caring capacity being stretch thin do so some lax regulation on food consumption and the accepted number of infant births in a given year. So the PCs are volunteers (or so the governing body says for those players who don't want to play saints) who are being ejected from their home in order to let others have a chance to live.
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Old 04-08-2016, 06:23 PM   #18
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

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This is fantastic E, what's the minimum size such a facilitate could be and still be self sufficient? Also how much surplus could one expect from that size?.
With TL9 the food production would be incredibly efficient. 50 people could be fed from a 3m x 3m tunnel about 500m long. So each person requires a 3mx3mx10m space for continual high quality fresh food, including meat. Add to that the living, storage, workshop and power generation space.

Without major equipment failure it would be hard to justify a food shortage from a facility like SALT. All they need to do is make more growing space.

Remembering that it's a TL9 facility and a lot of the variables about production are largely guesses, I would say it's reasonable that a primarily research facility like salt could produce high quality food for 10-20 times as many people who work there. If you reduce the quality then maybe double the production.
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Old 04-08-2016, 11:48 PM   #19
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

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With TL9 the food production would be incredibly efficient. 50 people could be fed from a 3m x 3m tunnel about 500m long. So each person requires a 3mx3mx10m space for continual high quality fresh food, including meat. Add to that the living, storage, workshop and power generation space.

Without major equipment failure it would be hard to justify a food shortage from a facility like SALT. All they need to do is make more growing space.

Remembering that it's a TL9 facility and a lot of the variables about production are largely guesses, I would say it's reasonable that a primarily research facility like salt could produce high quality food for 10-20 times as many people who work there. If you reduce the quality then maybe double the production.
Ok scratch that idea. On a similar note, you mention that any closed system will eventually falter. So what's the first major resource that SALT could run out of that wouldn't be unreasonable for a group of PCs to be sent out to obtain.
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Old 04-09-2016, 01:38 AM   #20
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

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Ok scratch that idea. On a similar note, you mention that any closed system will eventually falter. So what's the first major resource that SALT could run out of that wouldn't be unreasonable for a group of PCs to be sent out to obtain.
For an easy find, copper or specific alloys of copper for wiring any expansion.
Parts for 3D printers and auto factories. Specific computer parts or raw materials for printing new chips and boards. A key machine would be whatever makes the LEDs. They might also be after genetic material of any plants or animals that are tolerating the new post End conditions.

There may even be a whole shopping list of misc parts for the machinery that makes their goods.

Plastics are all made in house with home grown resources but metals would need to be salvaged. Bulk supplies of any of the elements that plants require.
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