Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-22-2016, 11:39 AM   #41
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
If the speed of light has a finite penalty, then 1/2 the penalty doesn't grow without bound.
It would be larger than that for settings with higher possible speeds.

Also the difference at the speed of light is already very large. It is large enough to make the difference between success almost all the time and it being imposible (except for automatic success).

Last edited by Andreas; 03-22-2016 at 11:58 AM.
Andreas is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2016, 11:46 AM   #42
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
It would be larger than that for settings with higher possible speeds.
...It probably shouldn't be. If the difference between c and 100*c makes any even slightly meaningful distance aside from turning Relativity inside out, you're shooting from astronomical ranges.


(I have long thought that active defenses, especially Dodge, really need to be modified by travel time at longer ranges. I mean, whatever you think about dodging bullets at close range, it's obviously not hard for unpredictable movement to force a miss if your opponent has to predict where you're going to be two seconds in advance.)
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2016, 11:57 AM   #43
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
...It probably shouldn't be. If the difference between c and 100*c makes any even slightly meaningful distance aside from turning Relativity inside out, you're shooting from astronomical ranges.


(I have long thought that active defenses, especially Dodge, really need to be modified by travel time at longer ranges. I mean, whatever you think about dodging bullets at close range, it's obviously not hard for unpredictable movement to force a miss if your opponent has to predict where you're going to be two seconds in advance.)
The Dodge penalties in that article are for spotting the projectile and then dodging it. You have to react and move far faster to dodge a projectile moving at 100*c than one moving at c. It does not make much sense for the penalty to be the same (if you were merely aim dodging, it would make sense, but then the penalty should reach its maximum long before the speed of light).

Yes, basing the penalty on how much time has passed after you manage to spot the attack rather than just speed would be the most realistic solution.

Last edited by Andreas; 03-22-2016 at 12:01 PM.
Andreas is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2016, 12:04 PM   #44
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Also what is the reasoning behind only having a half as large penalty to dodging as the penalty for parrying or blocking?
Block/Parry involves putting an object in the way of a projectile's path, while Dodge simply means getting out of the way of that path. Roughly speaking, it's the difference between hitting a baseball that's been thrown at you and just moving out of the way. Parrying the ball requires you to recognize that the ball is going to hit you in the left shoulder and putting the bat in the way; Dodging the ball requires you to recognize that the ball is going to hit you (possibly as precise as "on the left side," but that isn't necessary) and moving so it isn't anymore. Blocking is similar, although you don't have to be as precise, which is why you benefit from your shield's DB.

The actual difference could be debated, of course. Dodging requires you to know the location of the hit within SM+0 (that is, you just have to know it's going to hit you), Parrying possibly within SM-6 or so, and Blocking within the SM of the shield, which could be used as a different sort of progression than halving vs fourthing the to-hit penalty.
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2016, 12:23 PM   #45
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
The Dodge penalties in that article are for spotting the projectile and then dodging it. You have to react and move far faster to dodge a projectile moving at 100*c than one moving at c. It does not make much sense for the penalty to be the same (if you were merely aim dodging, it would make sense, but then the penalty should reach its maximum long before the speed of light).

Yes, basing the penalty on how much time has passed after you manage to spot the attack rather than just speed would be the most realistic solution.
But you can't spot an incoming lightspeed projectile at all.
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2016, 12:29 PM   #46
HANS
 
HANS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Berlin, Germany
Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
The Dodge penalties in that article are for spotting the projectile and then dodging it. You have to react and move far faster to dodge a projectile moving at 100*c than one moving at c. It does not make much sense for the penalty to be the same (if you were merely aim dodging, it would make sense, but then the penalty should reach its maximum long before the speed of light).

Yes, basing the penalty on how much time has passed after you manage to spot the attack rather than just speed would be the most realistic solution.
The problem with this, again, is that Dodge for firearms does NOT involve dodging the bullet. The speed of the projectile (or laser beam) is completely irrelevant. You dodge the line of sight of the shooter, really. You dodge his presentation (his aim). You move erratically. Again, all the discussions about the velocity of the bullet miss the point. The reason is that we KNOW that you cannot dodge a bullet by seeing the projectile and moving out of its way. However, we also KNOW that you can dodge the presentation and that you can make hitting yourself more difficult. That is Dodge. I concede that the terminology might be flawed, as it lumps it together with dodging things that you can, actually, evade this way (baseballs, spears, 40-mil grenades, etc), but it works.

Cheers

HANS
__________________
I blog at Shooting Dice.
HANS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2016, 12:31 PM   #47
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Block/Parry involves putting an object in the way of a projectile's path, while Dodge simply means getting out of the way of that path. Roughly speaking, it's the difference between hitting a baseball that's been thrown at you and just moving out of the way. Parrying the ball requires you to recognize that the ball is going to hit you in the left shoulder and putting the bat in the way; Dodging the ball requires you to recognize that the ball is going to hit you (possibly as precise as "on the left side," but that isn't necessary) and moving so it isn't anymore. Blocking is similar, although you don't have to be as precise, which is why you benefit from your shield's DB.

The actual difference could be debated, of course. Dodging requires you to know the location of the hit within SM+0 (that is, you just have to know it's going to hit you), Parrying possibly within SM-6 or so, and Blocking within the SM of the shield, which could be used as a different sort of progression than halving vs fourthing the to-hit penalty.
Yes, dodging is often harder than parrying, but I did not question the dodge penalty being lower. I questioned why the difference in difficulty should increase with speed like that. You do benefit from the DB of your shield, but that is just a constant bonus. Unlike the penalty, it does not grow with the speed of the attack.

Those rules give the same penalty for parrying an attack moving at 100,000 y/s as for dodging an attack that moves at the speed of light. That does not seem very reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
But you can't spot an incoming lightspeed projectile at all.
You might very well be able to spot it in settings with faster than light speed. Also you could predict it without directly spoting it (for example you might know that a laser pointed at you will fire at a certain time).

It does not really matter anyway. There are sepparate rolls for spotting and dodging, so if you get a dodge roll, then it can be assumed that you somehow know about it.
Andreas is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2016, 12:36 PM   #48
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I have long thought that active defenses, especially Dodge, really need to be modified by travel time at longer ranges.
Indeed. Ideally, there should be a system to represent your character knowing when and where, within some error, the attack is going to hit. How long that is from the moment the character determines it would grant the character a bonus to defend, with an appropriate adjustment for the above error. I've no good idea on how to build such a thing, unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
But you can't spot an incoming lightspeed projectile at all.
In a setting where objects can move faster than lightspeed, characters being able to perceive faster than lightspeed is a possibility. Of course, that pretty much has to be the case for penalties beyond c to come into play - if you can't perceive it, you can't defend against it.
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2016, 12:49 PM   #49
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
You might very well be able to spot it in settings with faster than light speed. Also you could predict it without directly spoting it (for example you might know that a laser pointed at you will fire at a certain time).
If you're not directly spotting it the whole speed thing makes even less sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Indeed. Ideally, there should be a system to represent your character knowing when and where, within some error, the attack is going to hit. How long that is from the moment the character determines it would grant the character a bonus to defend, with an appropriate adjustment for the above error. I've no good idea on how to build such a thing, unfortunately.
Nah. Or only for explosive projectiles, anyway.

If, somehow, you character knows where a projectile is going to hit more than a second (really even, say, half a second) in advance their successful basic dodge by not being there shouldn't even take a roll. If they're capable of re-positioning out of the path, they can do so.

But there's no need to have any idea where a projectile is going to hit. The point is moving such that the shooter can only guess at where you're going to be a couple seconds after they pull the trigger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
In a setting where objects can move faster than lightspeed, characters being able to perceive faster than lightspeed is a possibility. Of course, that pretty much has to be the case for penalties beyond c to come into play - if you can't perceive it, you can't defend against it.
Except that you absolutely can dodge lasers in reality, without being able to perceive either the attack or the attacker.
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2016, 12:50 PM   #50
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by HANS View Post
The problem with this, again, is that Dodge for firearms does NOT involve dodging the bullet. The speed of the projectile (or laser beam) is completely irrelevant. You dodge the line of sight of the shooter, really. You dodge his presentation (his aim). You move erratically. Again, all the discussions about the velocity of the bullet miss the point. The reason is that we KNOW that you cannot dodge a bullet by seeing the projectile and moving out of its way. However, we also KNOW that you can dodge the presentation and that you can make hitting yourself more difficult. That is Dodge. I concede that the terminology might be flawed, as it lumps it together with dodging things that you can, actually, evade this way (baseballs, spears, 40-mil grenades, etc), but it works.

Cheers

HANS
Dodge This as an article is for those that want to use the speed of the projectile as a factor in things. That's one of the whole points of the article. If you want to "dodge the point of aim" as GURPS has as its basis, then you throw that part of the article away, and if anything just bring out the Perception-based rules to limit situational awareness.

But - again, for the purposes of the article Dodge This! - the velocity is very much the point.
__________________
The Deadly Spring "...probably the most infamous Pyramid article of all time."-Jeffro's Car Wars Blog
Gaming Ballistic: Home of Gaming Ballistic, LLC and my blog.
DouglasCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
guns, tactical shooting

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.