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Old 03-21-2016, 02:36 PM   #21
Andreas
 
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Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
None probably. Military forces routinely fire thousands of rounds per casualty. For World War II the numbers are fairly firm and run about 1000 small arms rounds, and just under a ton of heavier ordinance, per casualty. Estimates for the recent Iraq war range from 50 to 250 times that. Admittedly military forces are a lot more willing to shoot at nothing on the off chance there is somebody over there, but still.

For a group that is more careful about targets and probably more cost constrained, US hunters kill 220 million animals per year (according to anti-hunting sites anyway) which dividing by the $6 billion of sporting ammunition sales suggests hunters burn through 50 to 100 rounds per kill. Admittedly some nontrivial fraction of sport shooting is for something other than hunting, but that 220 million kills figure is probably generously padded too.
I don't really see how that is relevant. The wast majority of those military bullets were probably fired by people who could not directly see any enemy.

There is also shooting practice and unused amunition. Also there are probably a number of careless hunters who significantly increases the average number of bullets per kill. The hunting I have personally witnessed had one kill per bullet and those hunters were not exceptionally skilled.

Last edited by Andreas; 03-21-2016 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 03-21-2016, 02:52 PM   #22
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Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

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Originally Posted by smurf View Post
Mooks don't like to be walked around that much so they will fire bursts of auto fire at the heroic dudes.

If x shots hit home then the defender needs to roll under their dodge score by x.

So if 6 rounds hit and our dodge 16 dude roles a 12, then 4 are avoided and 2 hit their mark.
This is true, but very unlikely.

To hit with six bullets, with any but a very few exceptional guns, requires making your attack roll by at least a margin of 12.

That's not something mooks accomplish often, even mooks with machine guns.
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Old 03-21-2016, 03:05 PM   #23
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Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
This is true, but very unlikely.

To hit with six bullets, with any but a very few exceptional guns, requires making your attack roll by at least a margin of 12.

That's not something mooks accomplish often, even mooks with machine guns.
Ok angry mook, skill 12, Gatling Carbine full Auto +5 and aimed that sucker and braced +5 and note equipped with a smart hudlink doodah and the target is 10 yards away which makes an impressive in mod of 20 and the luckly mook got an 8 clearing the roll by 12 = 6 rounds.

Otherwise yeah, fast characters can breeze through the mooks.
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Old 03-21-2016, 03:27 PM   #24
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Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

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Ok angry mook, skill 12, Gatling Carbine full Auto +5 and aimed that sucker and braced +5 and note equipped with a smart hudlink doodah and the target is 10 yards away which makes an impressive in mod of 20 and the luckly mook got an 8 clearing the roll by 12 = 6 rounds.

Otherwise yeah, fast characters can breeze through the mooks.
Yeah, aimed fire from 10 yards away with a rifle (an ultratech bullet-hose rifle, at that) is pretty exotic. While they take the round to Aim, they get shot in the face by the PC who is Spraying Fire, possibly while making a Move and Attack maneuver.

Of course, in Ultratech you get the option to break out the lasers, which have enormous acc and rcl 1 and thus can make high Dodge pretty ineffectual.
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Old 03-21-2016, 06:37 PM   #25
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Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

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Is the military experience really making you imagine that rounds in magazine to people shot is going to be anywhere near 1:1?
Maybe. It's not one for one, but if you take into account shooting at an actual target as opposed to laying down suppression fire or actioning return fire on in the general direction of a suspected threat, then we had pretty good ratios. Admittedly, a we did a lot of MOUT and we we all used M4s - decently accurate up to 550m, even with iron sights - but our methodology was very clearly, "body - body - head". If we missed the head, it was because the poor schmuck was already on the way down from the body-body precursor.

It's good to read up on a lot of this, though. I learn a lot from varied opinions and experiences. Helps majorly improve my grade of DM.
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Old 03-21-2016, 06:40 PM   #26
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Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

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Maybe. It's not one for one, but if you take into account shooting at an actual target as opposed to laying down suppression fire or actioning return fire on in the general direction of a suspected threat, then we had pretty good ratios.
Problem is you can't really do that; it's usually not practical to directly track all the things that might cause problems in a fight, so a lot of them have to be folded directly into the attack roll.
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Old 03-21-2016, 06:58 PM   #27
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Problem is you can't really do that; it's usually not practical to directly track all the things that might cause problems in a fight, so a lot of them have to be folded directly into the attack roll.
What I meant was, if you only considered the shots we took while actually trying to hit something - as opposed to the many shots we took to do other things, like not hit anything in particular - then we had pretty solid ratios. Not perfect, but I'd say most of us broke 50% and several broke 80%.

Admittedly, we were pretty serious about MOUT training, worked our reflexes and muscle memory, learned to rapidly line up shots, and always started an action with center mass - but that's just good combat arms training. I guess that would represent good Guns (Rifle) skill in GURPS - probably something like a 15 or 16. I'm still trying to get a good idea of success rates for skills, though.
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Old 03-21-2016, 09:08 PM   #28
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Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

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Originally Posted by FF_Ninja View Post
Depends on the situation, of course - weapon type (pistol, automatic, or longarm?), level of training, environment (cover?) - but I would respectfully disagree with this. Unless you're suppressing a target with high-volume or automatic fire (in which case your aim isn't to hit the target as much as keep them immobile and passive), shots landed on an actual visible target are not that rare. But, again, situations vary wildly from scared street thugs and wild insurgents to trained cops and hardened soldiers. Military experience to back this one up.

This does make me wonder if there are suppression rules, though... I should look that up. It would add an extra element to high-volume fire!
Vietnam disagrees. U.S troops fired estimated 2.200 to 50.00 rounds per kill, while snipers used estimated 1.33 bullets per kill. (statistic vary wildly by different sources)
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Old 03-21-2016, 09:37 PM   #29
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Vietnam disagrees. U.S troops fired estimated 2.200 to 50.00 rounds per kill, while snipers used estimated 1.33 bullets per kill. (statistic vary wildly by different sources)
Thanks for proving my point. Snipers are designed to kill individual targets with precision shots; our boys in Vietnam used primarily suppression fire into the foliage.
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Old 03-21-2016, 10:05 PM   #30
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Default Re: Dodgin' Bullets

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Originally Posted by FF_Ninja View Post
What I meant was, if you only considered the shots we took while actually trying to hit something - as opposed to the many shots we took to do other things, like not hit anything in particular - then we had pretty solid ratios. Not perfect, but I'd say most of us broke 50% and several broke 80%.
So, I take your anecdote as personal evidence - were you guys doing CQB and hitting 50-80% at within-room distances? Or is this precision fire at ranges of 25-100yds?

And thanks for your service.
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