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Old 02-21-2016, 01:13 AM   #41
Gollum
 
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Default Re: Alternative IQ distribution

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Originally Posted by Emerald Cat View Post
And if he's anything like the cats I've grown up with, he is probably much more manipulative than you are.
Oh yes! When she wants to eat (she's a female cat), she begins to do several stupid things (climbing on the kitchen table where she's not allowed to climb, making a lot of noise, playing just near a vase, and so on), until I give her some food.

She's clever enough to have understood how to get what she wants within one minute. And to become one of the most sweet, affectionate and calm cat I have ever seen the rest of the time!

I really believe that cats perfectly understand how to handle their "masters" (slaves would surely be a more appropriate word).
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Old 02-21-2016, 01:26 AM   #42
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Default Re: Alternative IQ distribution

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You may be right ... Exactly as a cat playing with a mouse ... It looks more like a sport and game than like a true hunt.
The only cat we had that didn't even look at wild animals loved playing with leaves... until another brought in an "open" mouse. Dipstick suddenly realized they were made of meat. From then on he was a killing machine even stealing kills to eat, but still playing only with inanimate objects.
He was pure hunter; the others were pure players.
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Old 02-21-2016, 09:01 PM   #43
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These comments remind me of a video by Vsauce where he talks about the disagreement among the scientific community as to how many senses humans have (is smell and taste one unit? Is auto-kinesthesia or proprioception something different than touch?), but splitting up Perception to that degree could easily get crazy. That there are multiple skills for tiny niches like Savoire Faire when cultural familiarity is only 1-2 points...that gets into a separate topic.

Despite that, why would there be something bad with splitting intelligence? Given that we're talking about GURPS, we're not comparing humans to animals (there's a lot of differences between those two...like culture. Yes, animals have their own codes/systems of behavior determined by what's facilitated by their environment). We also have Naga, self-aware computer viruses, and Starfish Aliens. Considering these, I think it's equally valid to consider IQ something to split as to leave oversimplified.
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:08 AM   #44
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These comments remind me of a video by Vsauce where he talks about the disagreement among the scientific community as to how many senses humans have (is smell and taste one unit? Is auto-kinesthesia or proprioception something different than touch?), but splitting up Perception to that degree could easily get crazy. That there are multiple skills for tiny niches like Savoire Faire when cultural familiarity is only 1-2 points...that gets into a separate topic.

Despite that, why would there be something bad with splitting intelligence? Given that we're talking about GURPS, we're not comparing humans to animals (there's a lot of differences between those two...like culture. Yes, animals have their own codes/systems of behavior determined by what's facilitated by their environment). We also have Naga, self-aware computer viruses, and Starfish Aliens. Considering these, I think it's equally valid to consider IQ something to split as to leave oversimplified.

Thing is there's also disagreement within the scientific community about dividing different types of intelligence up, and comparing human and non human intelligence. So if there was some accepted reality to make GURPS IQ a better fit to, than I'd say let's do it. But there isn't so I think we'd do so and risk not getting any closer to reality.

That said if you find it a better fit to do so than go for it. Most GURPS stats and how they express already spilt down as is, nothing wrong be making that clearer and adding more.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-22-2016 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 02-22-2016, 02:13 AM   #45
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Yes. To come back to GURPS rules - sorry for my digression - I think that what we usually name intelligence doesn't necessarily correspond to GURPS IQ.
I agree. I think that the simplest way to understand Intelligence in GURPS is a Talent for too many skills to bother enumerating. Animals perform much worse than humans at a wide range of skills (since the skill list is oriented towards the skills of humans, not cats or pidgeons ...) so they need a much lower Intelligence.
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Old 02-22-2016, 02:24 AM   #46
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Default Re: Alternative IQ distribution

Gurps IQ is everything mental that isn't related to motor control.
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Old 02-22-2016, 05:54 AM   #47
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I think it's anthrocentric to assume our specific form(s) of intelligence(s) is/are unlimited in scope and all other species' are mere echoes.
We did send communications in the space tailored to be understandable by non-human intelligence. Not anthropocentric, and yet a communication not even figurable by any terrestrial animal but us.

What definition of intelligence are you using when you state that animals can be intelligent like humans?
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Old 02-22-2016, 06:59 AM   #48
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I don't think you understand the concept, I'm not talking about giving a bonus, I'm talking about certain skills being controlled by one division of IQ than another.
I don't think you understand what I was I thinking. :)

If a person in your system has Logic-IQ 12 and Intuition-IQ 14, you could model it nearly the same way without having to make a super complicated change to the GURPS system.

Let's say this example person wants to learn diplomacy, and in your system that's more intuition based, so they base their skill on the 14. In straight up normal GURPS with the Talent advantage, you could create a Talent that fits the intuitive social interactions, and let them take the advantage at +2. Then with their normal IQ of 12 (most skills based on this), and the talent that roughly equates to being intuitive with certain skills would start from the 14.

I'm trying to say that you can already model a difference in "kinds of intelligence" with the RAW.

And one more quick thing: I don't think it makes sense to say the computer operation is strictly logical and diplomacy is strictly intuitive. A person can use a computer without being logical... the interface is designed to be intuitive... so that people don't need instructions to use various programs. That's the goal anyway. And diplomacy can be taught in a logical way... "if the person you're talking to is getting angry, apologize immediately and ask if there's a way to start over". I don't agree that the IQ based skills fall nicely into categories of logic versus intuition.
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Old 02-22-2016, 09:51 AM   #49
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What definition of intelligence are you using when you state that animals can be intelligent like humans?
The usual philosophical definition is: the ability to adapt oneself to a totally new situation (which is the exactly opposite of "instinct": a reflex and mechanical answer to a given situation).

From this definition, philosophers usually say that humans have intelligence: thanks to their technology, they can go where they were not conceived to go, for instance (deserts, deep space, deep water, and so on). And they also say that animals are not intelligent, but only instinctive, because they cannot do that.

But that is forgetting two important things ...

Humanity can go in space, yes, but not every human. I can't. Neither in deep water. And my chance of living in a desert by my own means only are very close from 0%. So, humanity is able of a lot of adaptation, but humans are not. If you take me and my cat, and throw us in a wild jungle, my cat will probably survive much more longer than I can. She is perfectly able to find her food and potable water outside. I am not. So, which one of us is the most able of adaptation to a totally new situation?

Humanity is not the only species able to go where it didn't go before. Ants do that too. Some of them are even living near south pole for instance. They probably came with humans, are frozen (literally!) 6 month a year and begin to live their life again, when ice in which they are stuck melt, until being frozen again. Humanity covered the whole globe. Ants did that too. They build houses, know slavery, agriculture aphid farming, and even the growing of hallucinogenic mushrooms only for their pleasure.

The difference between human intelligence and animal intelligence came from a judo-christian point of view. God created mankind in His own image, not animals.

But with ethology the distinction between human intelligence and animal intelligence do vanish more and more every time a new discover is done.

Are animals able of true adaptation? Yes, of course. And have humans a lot of purely instinctive behaviors? Yes, of course.
Note : I perfectly respect Christians and christian theology. But I just think that it has to be replaced in its historical context. And it is not the only religion. I do respect Buddhism and Shamanism too. They have a very different point of view about the difference between humans and animals.
Having said that, GURPS is just a game, not a scientific or philosophical treatise about intelligence. So, in GURPS terms, I consider that a low IQ and a good DX and Per perfectly work to make intelligent animals. That way, you don't give them high IQ-based skill defaults which would be totally weird.
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Last edited by Gollum; 02-22-2016 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 02-22-2016, 10:08 AM   #50
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Default Re: Alternative IQ distribution

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I don't think you understand what I was I thinking. :)

If a person in your system has Logic-IQ 12 and Intuition-IQ 14, you could model it nearly the same way without having to make a super complicated change to the GURPS system.
And I also fully do agree with Kdtipa. You can perfectly built characters with different kinds of intelligence in GURPS rules as written.

Having said that, house rules are fine, too, if you like them. But you risk to unbalance the game, making universal geniuses too expensive, for instance (compared with universal athletes). Lara Croft would become far much cheaper than Sherlock Holmes. Unless you also split DX. And then, why not ST ... And HT?
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