There MUST be a way to do this! { Reducing the number of skills }

[PencilBoy99]

So I want to be like my idol Kenneth Hite and run GURPS as my go to system. However, coming from Savage Worlds, World of Darkness, and BRP, the giant skill list freaks me out, along with the disproportionate effectiveness of raising characteristics like IQ over Skills. So off to google I go, and I find recommendations for using:

(1) Bang skills (which doesn't seem right because the costs are too high and they are usually professions rather than collections of generic skills);
(2) cutting down the skill list to fit the genre (which seems weird because the system has explicit rules for what the skills do, how they overlap, etc, so if I just use Diplomacy for social skills and not all the other ones (Fast Talk) does that break the system;
(3) changing the costs of things (e.g., making characteristics like IQ more expensive), which seems weird because the math of GURPS is tight and I'm worried I'll break something;
(4) some custom thing they made up but never finished

So, I think I'm missing something. There MUST be a right way to achieve my goal (more condensed skill list and less emphasis on core characteristics) because even people that don't like GURPS agree that there's a way to do almost everything in it. ;-)

[Eukie]

Originally Posted by PencilBoy99

So I want to be like my idol Kenneth Hite and run GURPS as my go to system. However, coming from Savage Worlds, World of Darkness, and BRP, the giant skill list freaks me out, along with the disproportionate effectiveness of raising characteristics like IQ over Skills. So off to google I go, and I find recommendations for using:

(1) Bang skills (which doesn't seem right because the costs are too high and they are usually professions rather than collections of generic skills);
(2) cutting down the skill list to fit the genre (which seems weird because the system has explicit rules for what the skills do, how they overlap, etc, so if I just use Diplomacy for social skills and not all the other ones (Fast Talk) does that break the system;
(3) changing the costs of things (e.g., making characteristics like IQ more expensive), which seems weird because the math of GURPS is tight and I'm worried I'll break something;
(4) some custom thing they made up but never finished

So, I think I'm missing something. There MUST be a right way to achieve my goal (more condensed skill list and less emphasis on core characteristics) because even people that don't like GURPS agree that there's a way to do almost everything in it. ;-)

With respect to method (2), it's usually not the most universal skills like Diplomacy or Fast Talk that I imagine people suggest cutting. Rather, there are a lot of niche skills that players probably wouldn't or shouldn't take anyway, which can be cut to make the skill list look more manageable. Such as Fortune-Telling, everything with Trained By A Master as a prerequisite, Design/Repair skills in a game where designing and repairing isn't relevant, Computer/Electronics Operation in a fantasy game, etc.

With respect to method (3), the math of GURPS is not particularly tight with respect to the value of attributes versus skills, precisely because different games have different needs for how many skills are relevant and at which level.

[johndallman]

Welcome to GURPS! There's more than one way to do this. Working through your list:

Bang skills can do it. The thing to remember is that characters can have several bang skills, and can have ordinary skills as well as bang skills. You can also buy up a few skills within the bang skill, which makes them more flexible. Don't think of them as professions, still less character classes. Think of them as "you know how to do X kind of thing, quite broadly", but not as "I use X as my only tool for dealing with the world."

Cutting down the skill list is, indeed, fiddly to get right. The trick is to have a party of characters who have the necessary skills between them, but aren't cluttered with skills that won't be needed. There's a way to take advantage of other people's work to get that right. That's done by using templates, and loads of those have been published. What kind of genre or setting are you thinking of running? With that, we can suggest the right book or PDF for appropriate templates.

Changing costs alters the way the game works. It seems able to survive this, given the number of people on these forums who make changes and report success, but changing them to have the desired effects needs some experience with the system, so I'd be cautious until you've got the feel of it. Personally, I've never felt the need to do this.

[Pseudonym]

Trimming the skill list for the genre is what I normally do. If GMing, I tell my players what skills will be absolutely required. I try to make sure that they know what skills are needed for the character concepts they are shooting for as well.

I think your summation that a wildcard skill won't work exactly in this situation is about right; Wildcards at their wildest are somewhat like Fate's aspects where you think of two or three descriptions per character (Explorer! Geek!), and from those descriptive words you adjudicate what it would make sense for them to know without constraining yourself specifically to a skill list (Well, this situation requires a survival roll. Jane Smith has Geek! which doesn't fit, but an Explorer! probably knows how to survive.) Wildcards, if usable, have the advantage that they can speed up character creation, and translating wildcard skills to GURPS skills is probably easier than translating a custom skill list to GURPS skills... and anyone can make up a wildcard skill.

I personally dislike the idea of making IQ more expensive, but it is a very popular method of dealing with (one of) your problem(s).

I think the easiest custom route if trimming the list of skills and using wildcard skills is infeasible is to start off with a condensed skill list from one of your favorite alternatives to GURPS; Try to eyeball which attribute they belong to, and what difficulty they would be. If using other GURPS materials that refer to a more specific skill than the more generalized skills, just use the applicable generalized skill in its place.

For example, if we were talking about converting the savage worlds skill list to GURPS, I might go with:

• Boating, Whatever it already is in GURPS
• Climbing, whatever it already is in GURPS
• Driving, whatever it already is in GURPS
• Faith, being a skill used to execute spells, IQ\Very Hard... more appropriately, probably changed into a power talent like Divine Investiture instead of a skill.
• Fighting, being all melee weapons, probably DX\Hard or DX\Very Hard
• etc...

And yeah, it's unavoidable probably that there will be some glitches if you go from a super fine grain skill list to a coarse grain skill list; some things will inevitably become relatively more valuable and some will become relatively less valuable, but at least coming up with a brand new list of skills (or at least, converting a list you are comfortable with) isn't hard. And if it is fun, it doesn't matter.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by PencilBoy99

So I want to be like my idol Kenneth Hite and run GURPS as my go to system. However, coming from Savage Worlds, World of Darkness, and BRP, the giant skill list freaks me out, along with the disproportionate effectiveness of raising characteristics like IQ over Skills. So off to google I go, and I find recommendations for using:

(1) Bang skills (which doesn't seem right because the costs are too high and they are usually professions rather than collections of generic skills);
(2) cutting down the skill list to fit the genre (which seems weird because the system has explicit rules for what the skills do, how they overlap, etc, so if I just use Diplomacy for social skills and not all the other ones (Fast Talk) does that break the system;
(3) changing the costs of things (e.g., making characteristics like IQ more expensive), which seems weird because the math of GURPS is tight and I'm worried I'll break something;
(4) some custom thing they made up but never finished

So, I think I'm missing something. There MUST be a right way to achieve my goal (more condensed skill list and less emphasis on core characteristics) because even people that don't like GURPS agree that there's a way to do almost everything in it. ;-)

1) Bang Skills

Bang skills are best when a character has one or two. For example, a Star Trek Engineer might have Engineering!-15, which means that he can do nearly anything involved with engineering, from fixing a starships engines to improving a one-shot phaser from some gum, tinfoil, his electrocuffs, and the hairs from the space rat in his space cell. But such a character would still have Savoir-Faire (Military) and Area Knowledge (The Rigellian Sector) and Beam Weapons (Pistol) and other such highly specialized knowledges. Bang Skills are meant to work with the system as written.

2) Cutting down on skills

You have to do this anyway. Obviously, a fantasy character isn't interested in Beam Weapons (Pistol), and a Space Opera character isn't (usually) interested in Bow. You can see some examples of how this works best in "Campaign Frameworks" like Dungeon Fantasy, Monster Hunters and Action. In these books, players will pick their skills from a template or, if they really must have flexibility, from a list included in this book. This list (and the templates) are derived not only from the genre, but the core focus of the game. For example, Monster Hunters isn't really all that interested in the nuances of Savoir-Faire, but it is highly interested in the nuances of Hidden Lore, thus Hidden Lore is extensively discussed, while Savoir-Faire gets a mention here and there.

If you're worried about players "knowing enough," most frameworks have rules that allow for flexibility. For example, every template has Wild Talent, which means once per session a character can roll at a "default" of their IQ or DX with a particular skill, thus, someone always has the skill necessary at least once per session.

3 and 4) Rewriting the rules

You are, of course, free to do this. Take the skill list you're familiar with, and just price them based on normal skills. After all, if you have 30 skills (15 physical and 15 mental), then it becomes cost-prohibitive to have all of them at high levels, just as it's cost-prohibitive to have them all at high levels now. Characters who want to be generalists will buy high levels of IQ and DX, so the pricing scheme is (more-or-less) preserved.

But I encourage you to stop for a moment and embrace a paradigm shift. You're used to other systems. I'm familiar with World of Darkness, so I will use that as an example. In the World of Darkness paradigm, a skill is a reactive trait. A player wants to do something, and the GM will decide what Attribute + Skill apply, and the player hopes to have those skills.

"Someone was murdered? Hmm. Can I look for clues?"
"What's your Perception + Investigation?"
"I have a Perception of 3 and an Investigation of 2." Whew! Lucky for you, you had the skill necessary to find the clue. What if you hadn't?

"Someone was murdered. Hmm. Can I look for clues?"
"What's your Forensics?"
"...Crap, forensics? Why would I have forensics?' Oh no, you're doomed!

But GURPS doesn't actually work this way. GURPS has an active, rather than reactive paradigm. There are many skills that circle around a particular concept, and you use them to navigate to your solution (a similar game that does this, by the way, is Gumshoe.)

"Someone was murdered? Hmm. Can I look for clues?"
"How do you want to look for them?"
"Well, I don't have any forensics, but I do have Psychology, Acting, Contacts, and Streetwise. Hmmm. I can phone around, see what information I can find, perhaps get in touch with the cops see what they know. I can also see what I hear on the street, perhaps play a role to trick someone into telling me more. And once I get some information, I can start to piece together the motivations behind this murder, profiling the guy..."

See, it doesn't actually matter that you don't have Forensics. It just means you need to take another route to your solution. In GURPS, skill determines less whether you succeed or fail, and more the way in which you will go about things, if you're smart.

Now, of course, World of Darkness and games with a reactive paradigm can certainly work this way too. The above situation is a character with no Investigate and some Subterfuge and Streetwise. You could similarly cut down on the lists and ignore what I'm talking about here. I'm not saying that's wrong or bad or that you shouldn't do it, I'm just encouraging you to shift how you think and approach GURPS as it is. Even if it doesn't work for you, you might learn something that'll help you with other systems, or with your new build for GURPS.

[Emerald Cat]

Originally Posted by PencilBoy99

So, I think I'm missing something. There MUST be a right way to achieve my goal (more condensed skill list and less emphasis on core characteristics) because even people that don't like GURPS agree that there's a way to do almost everything in it. ;-)

I would definitely try to minimize the number of house rules I'd introduce. Using 150 to 200 pts as your starting point value makes it difficult to get abusive levels of IQ and DX without that being a major focus of the character.

Regardless of how you handle the skills, I strongly recommend using templates for character creation. This ensures that all of your characters have their skills at the required levels for their concept. Making the templates will also help you to learn the system. Finding players will be easier if it is possible to build competent characters without having to learn the entire system at once.

Since everyone at the game will be new players, I'd keep the templates simple so that your players won't be overwhelmed. I'd highly recommend the GURPS Template Toolkit 1: Characters for advice on how to build your templates.

Wildcard skills are a good alternative for simplifying the skill list. You can give each template its own Wildcard skill. This makes character sheets far more compact and helps to ensure niche protection. On the other hand, this can make getting a high level of offensive skill relatively more expensive. So make sure to give the players enough character points to make competent combatants.

[Onkl]

I usually use method 2. When designing a setting I use the this tool:

http://www.sjgames.com/gameaids/gurp...gi?Mode=Skills

It helps to quickly get a list of skills that I really want and need in my scenario.

Then I go on describing what each skill does in my scenario. As others have pointed out, that might lead to skills becoming more valuable. As in your example, Diplomacy would be much more valuable if you could use it as Sex Appeal, Fast-Talk, Intimidation... This does not break the system, I use it all the time. But why not then just call it Talk! and be done with it.

Then just limit how much IQ can be bought and be done with it. The most important thing to remember is that you can do whatever you want with GURPS and that the most important thing is to have fun doing it and use what you need and discard everything that you don't need.

I encourage you to start with GURPS Light and add to that what you need.

Cheers!

Onkl

[safisher]

Originally Posted by PencilBoy99

So, I think I'm missing something. There MUST be a right way to achieve my goal (more condensed skill list and less emphasis on core characteristics) because even people that don't like GURPS agree that there's a way to do almost everything in it. ;-)

One, make templates for the campaign with limited choices (set skill lists, appropriate specializations and familiarities, etc.). Two, make use of Talents to boost core competencies in the PC's niche. Action and Dungeon Fantasy do this and it works very well. The recent Action: Specialists volume, for instance, creates an array of choices but also limits what the PCs can access. Remember, GURPS is universal, but every campaign is not. The players get their cues from the GM, not the Basic Set.

[Mark Skarr]

Welcome to GURPS. It’s okay to be freaked out.

The first thing to do is to become familiar with the skill list, in general terms. Don’t memorize it, but don’t ignore it.

The second step is to learn to roll with the punches. If Player G is supposed to be playing a forensics expert (from Malanka’s example above), and they’re new to the system, and they forget to take the skill, hey, you’re all still learning, it’s a game. Modify the character on the fly, or give them the relevant skill (and withhold some of their forthcoming rewards to pay for it). The most important thing to not do is panic or penalize a new player for making a mistake.

Remember, it’s all about having fun.

Personally, I detest Bang! skills. So, I’ll let others talk about them.

As for IQ/DX being more efficient, that’s true, but it’s not more effective.

Raising a character’s IQ/DX takes longer. Assuming 2.5 points per session, it will take eight sessions before you can raise your IQ or DX. At which point all of your IQ/DX skills go up by one. Which is great if you want to be a generalist, but bad if you want to be an expert on something. It is, significantly, more effective to simply focus on the skills you want to raise, and get them to a high level, than it is to buy enough attributes to get all your skills to a high level.

MAGOne has a Broadsword skill of 20, Shield of 16 and a DX of 12. That Broadsword skill cost him 32 points, Shield cost 12 and the DX cost 40 for a total of 84 points. If, instead, he spent 80 points on DX, for a DX of 14, and only two on each Broadsword and Shield (for a total of 84 points), he’d have a Broadsword of 14 and a Shield of 15. The DX build has more potential, but the Skill build is more effective. Being a sword-and-board man, the skill build is much more effective for him than the attribute build.

You can also limit the amount of any attribute a character can start with, or can raise to. Keep in mind the box on pg. 14 of Characters where they describe basic attribute levels. Unless you’re playing a game where super-human attributes are a possibility you can freely limit the maximum attribute possible to a character.

Instead of, directly, changing the cost of the attributes, you can assign an Unusual Background to attributes above a certain value, say 13. According to pg. 14 of characters “. . . most normal humans have scores in the 8-12 range.” So, you assign an Unusual Background equal to the cost of the attribute for every point over 13. This, effectively, doubles the cost of any attribute once your players want to get past 13. It still allows players to continue improving their character’s attributes, but severely curtails the effectiveness of attributes, in general.

Also, look into Talents. They’re more efficient for raising small groups of skills than buying the full attribute.

[brianfb]

I just set arbitrary limits on attributes at character creation. Generally 13.