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Old 10-14-2015, 12:33 PM   #11
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Default Re: Rapid Strike Fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koningkrush View Post
....
First of all, to show what I mean, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O5JoxqOcKQ
This guy obviously must be Trained by a Master to pull this off by GURPS standards, and shouldn't even exist in reality.

...
As has been stated that's a chap throwing very quick punches over a distance of a few inches in a non combat situation, with an all out attack, against a stationary target. (and he practised that very specific scenario) it's not combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koningkrush View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnHZGiLFFl8

Here's another example. Each hit would be considered a strike under normal GURPS rules. It would seem unfair to charge 4 levels of Extra Attack to simulate this.
This chap is moving his hands very fast but I'm not convinced I'd class those as all being attacks, and basically see above.

The fact that that both are obviously a practised and predetermined set of attacks also probably makes them combinations in GURPS MA terms as well.


If you really want to make these a combat thing, extend the combo rules past the three attacks limit just continue the progression, and do it in situations where you can stack lots of positive mods like these chaps are.

But honestly those look more like combat sport Combos taken to the nth degree and shot well, with a bunch of chaps standing around clapping and saying "hmm yes you'd totally win in real fight if you did that"

Last edited by Tomsdad; 10-14-2015 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 10-14-2015, 12:40 PM   #12
Koningkrush
 
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Default Re: Rapid Strike Fix

:/ I did not know about combinations. Well, I just did a lot of work for nothing xD. At least there is an alternative system now if anyone wants to use it. The video I shared basically is just the guy performing various combinations that he has trained in.

I really need to read Martial Arts front to back to make sure I don't miss any other things like this.
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Old 10-14-2015, 12:45 PM   #13
mlangsdorf
 
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Default Re: Rapid Strike Fix

Your new version is better, but it still doesn't address some issues:

1) There's no incentive to not attack twice if you have Rapid Strike points, and you usually do. DX 12 HT 12 gives 6 RSP, and that's enough for two rapid swings with a broadsword, the first at skill and the second with a -2 penalty. Normally, that kind of attack is made at -6 for both attacks, and there's a tactical decision involved: more strikes with a lower chance of success, or one strike that is more likely to hit? There's a lot of times when my characters didn't rapid strike under the normal rules, while under your rules they would have almost always performed a rapid strike.
2) It's not clear how Reach 1+ thrusting weapons work with your rules at all.
3) It's not clear how multiple different melee attacks count for Rapid Strike points: a headbut followed by a punch to the stomach followed by a knee to the face is a bit extreme, but it's something that someone might want to do. In normal GURPS, its a combination or a all-out double rapid strike, in your system it consumes some number of RSP but I can't figure it out.
4) You have this term "damage boost" but I'm not sure what it means. The extra magic strength I get from having the Might spell cast on me? The follow-up attack from Flaming Weapon? The bonus damage because my sword has the Puissant enchantment? My per die bonus from Weapon Master? My bonus from Higher Purpose (Giants) when attacking Giants? Normally, all that stuff affects all damage rolls, and I don't have to worry about it. Under your system, some of that stuff might affect only some of my damage rolls, and that's another level of book-keeping.
Come to think of it, can I choose which attack the damage bonus applies to? I might want to have it apply to the last attack in the sequence, under the assumption that my first attack or two will be canceled by my foe's defenses.
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Old 10-14-2015, 12:50 PM   #14
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Rapid Strike Fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koningkrush View Post
...

I really need to read Martial Arts front to back to make sure I don't miss any other things like this.
No worries, there really is a load of stuff in MA (I've had it for years, and I'm still finding stuff in it and thinking, do'h of course)
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Old 10-14-2015, 02:42 PM   #15
Koningkrush
 
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Default Re: Rapid Strike Fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
Your new version is better, but it still doesn't address some issues:

1) There's no incentive to not attack twice if you have Rapid Strike points, and you usually do. DX 12 HT 12 gives 6 RSP, and that's enough for two rapid swings with a broadsword, the first at skill and the second with a -2 penalty. Normally, that kind of attack is made at -6 for both attacks, and there's a tactical decision involved: more strikes with a lower chance of success, or one strike that is more likely to hit? There's a lot of times when my characters didn't rapid strike under the normal rules, while under your rules they would have almost always performed a rapid strike.
2) It's not clear how Reach 1+ thrusting weapons work with your rules at all.
3) It's not clear how multiple different melee attacks count for Rapid Strike points: a headbut followed by a punch to the stomach followed by a knee to the face is a bit extreme, but it's something that someone might want to do. In normal GURPS, its a combination or a all-out double rapid strike, in your system it consumes some number of RSP but I can't figure it out.
4) You have this term "damage boost" but I'm not sure what it means. The extra magic strength I get from having the Might spell cast on me? The follow-up attack from Flaming Weapon? The bonus damage because my sword has the Puissant enchantment? My per die bonus from Weapon Master? My bonus from Higher Purpose (Giants) when attacking Giants? Normally, all that stuff affects all damage rolls, and I don't have to worry about it. Under your system, some of that stuff might affect only some of my damage rolls, and that's another level of book-keeping.
Come to think of it, can I choose which attack the damage bonus applies to? I might want to have it apply to the last attack in the sequence, under the assumption that my first attack or two will be canceled by my foe's defenses.
1. I suppose this could go either way. It could be increased to -4 so that it would be -16 by the fourth hit, meaning an actual master (25 skill) would be at 9 skill. Either that, or keep it at -6 while forcing the player to pay into a technique that reduces the cost penalty. I agree that -2 is way too low.

2. I wasn't sure myself, but I could see someone thrusting with a weapon just as fast as he could keep punching. A fair way to treat it, and a realistic way, would be to apply a -2 reduction to all damage from thrusting hits while keeping the Rapid Strike Point cost equal to unarmed. The reasoning is similar to how swinging gets -2 to damage when doing an All-Out Attack to increase reach. In this case, the blade isn't getting nearly as much impalement. It's not penetrating all the way since the wielder is pulling it out before it can so another attack can be made.

3. Simple, Each strike costs 1 each. They are all different limbs, and an attack isn't being repeated more than once without alternating. For example, if you decided to head butt them three times, the cost would be 1, 2, and 3 for a total of 6 while also looking very amusing. If you decided to head butt, then knee, then head butt again, it would cost 1, 1, and 2 (a second head butt was performed without alternating with another head) totaling 4.

4. This is the biggest conundrum. We could just be realistic and apply it to every single hit, but that would be insanely unbalanced. We could divide the damage bonus that would be given by the number of attacks you are making, and apply that resulting amount to each hit, but that might be too much book keeping.

My solution was to just only apply it to your initial major strike. This is the first hit, or the first two hits if you used All-Out Attack Double. My reasoning is that these first two hits make a much stronger strike and deliver all of the energy that is given by a damage bonus. It's also just much more simple and easy than dividing the damage while also not breaking the game. The problem with this is that it suggests the first attacks are much stronger, so maybe each rapid strike has an increasing cumulative -1 penalty to damage to simulate this?
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Old 10-14-2015, 02:51 PM   #16
Koningkrush
 
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Default Re: Rapid Strike Fix

Rapid Strike Points = (DX+ST)/5

If using techniques, the skill penalty for each rapid strike begins at -6 and increases by increments of -6. If not using techniques, the penalty begins at -3 and increases by increments of -3.

Alternating strikes with the same limb type (Right arm then left, Right leg to left leg, one head to the other head, etc.) cost 1 point each. Striking multiple times with the same limb without first alternating to another costs a cumulative extra point.

Double all point costs for weapons with Reach 1 that use swinging to strike, triple for reach 2, and so on.

Any damage boosting effects do not apply to any extra attacks gained by spending Rapid Strike Points. The first attack (and second if using All-Out Attack Double) must make contact to transfer any additional damage other than basic damage caused by the strike itself.

Damage dealt by Rapid Striking with a Reach 1 or higher thrust weapon is reduced by 2.

The first attack gained by a Rapid Strike has a 1 reduction in damage, with the reduction increasing by 1 for each strike beyond the first.

---Additional Options---

Speedy Hits: Reduce damage for each attack by a doubling cumulative amount for each extra Rapid Strike point. (1 extra point, -1 for all hits; 2 extra points, -2 for all hits; 3 extra points, -4 for all hits; 4 extra points, -8 for all hits; etc). This allows low dexterity people with huge ST to sacrifice their brute force with speed. Technically, there is no limit for this. However, you will eventually just be rapidly tapping them with your finger doing no damage, or even just vibrating your hand on their chest with each twitch being a technical "hit". There would be absolutely no point in going that far though.

Extra Effort: Spend a cumulative 1 FP to gain an extra Rapid Strike Point, up to a maximum set by the GM. A realistic limit would be 1 or 2, while a cinematic limit might be 3 or 4. This could be used in tandem with Flurry of Blows.

***Changes Made***
Increased the DX and ST divisor from 4 to 5. I figured that being able to pull off 5 unarmed strikes in a second might be too high for an average fighter, even if they do all miss. This is the minimum to still allow two separate attacks with a weapon in each hand (4 total points, 2 point cost per alternating weapon hit).

Increased skill penalty from -2 to -3 to reduce constant use, and having the option for a -6 penalty if using techniques to make players pay for training in order to reduce the penalties.

Clarified Thrust weapons by allowing them to be treated as unarmed strikes, but at a -2 for damage to simulate incomplete thrusts in order to achieve a greater number of thrusts.

Added a cumulative damage reduction system to simulate reduced potential damage. This allows a distinction between a single, powerful hit to multiple weaker hits. The option to increase this penalty still exists to inflate this effect for more hits.

Last edited by Koningkrush; 10-14-2015 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 10-14-2015, 11:34 PM   #17
Ji ji
 
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Default Re: Rapid Strike Fix

When a boxer throw a series of 3 or 4 blows in less than a second, only the last is a true blow (by GURPS standard) while the others are lighter and their purpose is to prepare the last true blow. Same is true for techniques from the other "speed" unarmed martial arts like the chain of punches in kung fu or wing chun. A lot of movements intended to open the way for a single true attack.

This in GURPS is Deceptive Attack.
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Old 10-14-2015, 11:57 PM   #18
Balor Patch
 
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Default Re: Rapid Strike Fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koningkrush View Post
Rapid Strike Points = (DX+ST)/5
Is it intended that angry gamma irradiated beings should have many Rapid Strike Points? Because the Hulk has plenty of ST.
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Old 10-15-2015, 01:13 AM   #19
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Rapid Strike Fix

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Originally Posted by Balor Patch View Post
Is it intended that angry gamma irradiated beings should have many Rapid Strike Points? Because the Hulk has plenty of ST.
Or not even green super heroes, beware of boxing elephants.
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Old 10-15-2015, 03:15 PM   #20
starslayer
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Default Re: Rapid Strike Fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koningkrush View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnHZGiLFFl8

Here's another example. Each hit would be considered a strike under normal GURPS rules. It would seem unfair to charge 4 levels of Extra Attack to simulate this.
In your second video once he is actually delivering solid blows to bags/targets (IE as of 20s to 30s) his blows are very visibly slower then one blow/second, with a possible follow up punch to the gut that would naturally play into dual weapon attack (fists) [but his blows are so slow at that point that it might just be two attacks each one round apart].

Otherwise you can see from his attacks that he is very defiantly performing some sort of trade of power for more strikes, he offsets his hands closer to the target (which will reduce power) and he is not putting any follow through into his attacks. Seen again at 3:53 to end of video you can audibly hear how light his 'blows' are compared to just a solid 'rest' on the wood.

A better source to find video of skilled and trained individuals attacking might be some MMA fights, but they seem to map quite nicely to the GURPS pacing of them (If anything they are much slower then one blow a second, with a lot of 'feint, feint, feint, demolishing burst of power')

There are some awesome martial artists out there who can legitimately attack quite often- this guy is not one of them, and the combination of rapid strike, dual weapon attack, all out attack (dual), and combinations seems to capture them quite well.
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