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Old 10-08-2015, 09:07 AM   #1
philosophyguy
 
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Default Real world HP and FP equivalents

GURPS gives good real world equivalents for lots of the game's mechanics. The explanations of basic attribute values from crippling to amazing makes it easy to guesstimate the appropriate value for most characters. Move has a direct real world translation. The task difficulty examples on B345-346 likewise provide a reference point for bonuses or penalties.

However, I haven't found good reference points to ballpark damage in terms of HP or exhaustion in terms of FP, which makes it difficult to come up with reasonable guesses on the fly when GMing new or unexpected scenarios.

What reference points do you (as a GM) use to estimate HP and FP costs? Are there touchpoints that are helpful in making the mechanical abstractions meaningful?
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Old 10-08-2015, 09:56 AM   #2
Otaku
 
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Default Re: Real world HP and FP equivalents

For starters, maybe jot down the costs listed in the Base Set for real world activities (even if they aren't especially common activities). For Hit Points, think about what weapons can cause that level of damage and how much ST it requires. For FP, look at how much FP an activity burns and how long a character with an FP score of X can do it before being tired to the point the rules gives them some penalty. I don't know if it carried over from 3e, but back then there were 0-point wounds; largely irrelevant except when it was important for something to have broken the skin, left a bruise, etc. and there are many activities that require significant lengths of times before a full FP point has been expended; below that point I would use real world experience to determine if an attempt or incomplete action should round up to a full FP burned or not.

Wish I had more solid answers... which is actually part of why I am chiming in; kind of curious where this goes.
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Old 10-08-2015, 10:20 AM   #3
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Real world HP and FP equivalents

Both concepts are a bit too abstract to really pin down. Real world wounding doesn't really follow the same pattern as is seen for GURPS HP, and in terms of FP, well, sprinting for 30 seconds, hiking for an hour, fighting a (mock) battle, missing a meal, being dehydrated, staying up late, or spending an hour in freezing temperatures in normal winter clothing all feel quite different, despite each one resulting in the loss of 1 FP.

For determining HP of damage, first keep in mind that the ST-based damage table has very little basis in reality, so for attacks and the like you'll want to set it based on what you want the mechanical effect to be - capable of bypassing up to DR n (dice of damage would be around n/3), kills an average unarmored man in n hits (average wounding - meaning dice of damage multiplied by 3.5 and with the wounding modifier applied - of 20/n), and so forth. For firearms and the like, you can often find what their penetration of RHA steel would be. In GURPS, RHA steel is DR 70/inch, so every inch is 20d of damage (if you instead have it in mm, every 1 mm of penetration is 0.8d of damage).

For FP, your best bet is to just base it on whatever is closest and already exists in the RAW.
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Old 10-08-2015, 11:18 AM   #4
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Real world HP and FP equivalents

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophyguy View Post
However, I haven't found good reference points to ballpark damage in terms of HP or exhaustion in terms of FP, which makes it difficult to come up with reasonable guesses on the fly when GMing new or unexpected scenarios.
Is it at all possible to match FP loss to real-world actions and exertions?

I was under the impression that FP loss was random, i.e. non-deterministic, meaning that one day a character tries to run a half-marathon but keels over half way through, puking his guts out, and the next week, the exact same character, under the exact same conditions, can run the half-marathon, and back to the starting line again, and then to the finish line once more to show off, just because the dice fell slightly differently.

Am I mistaken in this?
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Old 10-08-2015, 11:22 AM   #5
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Default Re: Real world HP and FP equivalents

For damage, I tend to think in terms of the effects. For general injury, how many of these could a typical person take before they'd tend to need to collapse and stop fighting? Divide heath 10 by that number to find the damage points I'm thinking of. So a weapon that would usually "one-shot" someone probably averages at least 10 points of damage. Two hits to take someone out? Probably more like 5-6 points average.

And for minor injuries, I think "would ten or so of these probably take me/someone out?" If so, it's 1 point - if "no, even 20 of these wouldn't make someone collapse" then it's probably no even a point of actual damage.

If I'm thinking of a head or limb injury, then I similarly "reverse-engineer" based on the likely effects.

I also take into account my understanding of the healing rules. A lot of the "damage" in GURPS is actually the effect of shock rather than flesh destruction. This is why doing first aid well restores some points of damage from each wound immediately - it's recovery from shock and/or preventing bad healing and minor infections. And as an expert GM, I also take into account the optional bleeding and disease rules...

Similarly for fatigue, I work backwards from the effects and the point at which I think someone would collapse, and/or how long I'd think they'd need to rest to recover to 100%. I take into account condition (Fit, Very Fit, etc) and other house rules I use.

Really though, I try to have good detailed rules that I've thought about in advance and satisfy my maniacal hunger for detail, and that give me formulas to use so I usually don't have to think about it during play, except in the other direction (as I usually explain what's happening in English rather than game terms and numbers).
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Old 10-08-2015, 11:43 AM   #6
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Default Re: Real world HP and FP equivalents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
I was under the impression that FP loss was random, i.e. non-deterministic, meaning that one day a character tries to run a half-marathon but keels over half way through, puking his guts out, and the next week, the exact same character, under the exact same conditions, can run the half-marathon, and back to the starting line again, and then to the finish line once more to show off, just because the dice fell slightly differently.

Am I mistaken in this?
Paced running - which running a half-marathon would probably fall under - requires a roll against HT or HT-based Running skill every minute. Seeing as even a character with Move 10 would take around 80 minutes to run a half-marathon, the sheer number of rolls there mean you're going to end up with a run that's very close to average.

Now, actually gaming out a half-marathon should use much fewer rolls, but this probably won't be in the form of "roll against HT, failure means you lose 1 FP every minute, success means you don't lose any FP for the entire run."
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Old 10-08-2015, 03:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: Real world HP and FP equivalents

Please don't turn this into yet another thread about the state of the hiking/paced running rules :D

There's no real metric for HP and FP damage. Hit point (and fatigue point) systems are a gamist abstraction of some really complex stuff; GURPS doesn't load as much into the HP system as some other games, but it's still an abstraction.

Case in point - say getting stabbed by an ice pick does 1 injury and being stabbed by a big sword does 10 injury. Joe GURPS has 10 hit points.
Joe risks death after being stabbed by that sword twice, and will die after being stabbed 6 times (automatic death at -5xHP). Seems pretty reasonable.
But if you stab Joe 20 times in the hands and feet, he's at risk of death just like getting stabbed twice in the torso by the sword. If you stab him 60 times in the hands and feet, he just ups and dies before he even has a chance to bleed to death. That's a little weird.
You can pile more and more and more optional rules onto the situation, basically pulling more and more effects of wounding off of HP and into their own mechanics, but you can end up with some pretty detailed and unwieldy rules without getting rid of the core nickle-and-dimed vs a-few-big-hits issue.
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Old 10-09-2015, 12:39 AM   #8
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Default Re: Real world HP and FP equivalents

I fully do agree with Bruno (and others above). Hit Points are abstract and sometimes give some odd results. But they are still a very convenient way to handle wounds, while other systems (like the Old Star Wars D6's one, for instance) are more clumsy and brings more problems...

Now, if you still want some hints about what X point of damage mean, just take the average result of each weapon wielded by an average guy (ST 10) on another average man.
  • Punch (1d-3 cr) / 1 point of damage.
  • Baton (1d cr): 3.5 points of damage.
  • Knife, swung (1d-2 cut): 2.5 points of damage.
  • Knife, thrust (1d-2 imp): 3.33 points of damage.
  • Shortsword, swung (1d cut): 5.25 points of damage.
  • Broadsword, swung (1d+1 cut): 6.75 points of damage.
  • Axe (1d+2 cut): 8.25 points of damage.
  • 9mm Pistol (2d+2 pi): 9 points of damage.
  • Assault rifle (5d+1 pi): 18.5 points of damage.
  • And so on...
So, 1 point of damage is more or less like a punch in the ribs, 3 points of damage is like a knife stab in the belly, 5 points of damage is like a shortsword blow, 7 points of damage is like a broadsword blow, 9 points of damage like a 9mm bullet in the chest, and so on.
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:24 AM   #9
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Default Re: Real world HP and FP equivalents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
... 3 points of damage is like a knife stab in the belly...
Quibble with this point. From the rest of your analysis 3 points would be a "knife cut" and no more. Belly wounds involve organs and potential sepsis -- hence the damage multiplier for vitals. The knife stab to the belly would be x3 for average 8 points. I'd describe the 3-point injury as a cut to muscle/surface bone area; it'll hurt, bleed, make you yelp about the tavern where you had breakfast, but isn't a fight ender for a hardened individual.
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Old 10-09-2015, 09:32 AM   #10
Anders
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Default Re: Real world HP and FP equivalents

IIRC, Bio-Tech states that leaving a pint of blood costs 1 HP. Make of that what you will.
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