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Old 09-21-2015, 06:10 AM   #11
Mr Frost
 
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Default Re: Actual Impaling Question

The High Tech rule on p162 is very unrealistic for more powerful rifles and machineguns even if wound modifiers are employed .

12.7 x 99mm and up will literally tear a human torso apart with just single shots in ways impossible for a Human to survive .
For that matter , I highly doubt that 338 Lapua Magnum is as survivable as 7.62 x 51mm on an average torso hit .
Would a HT10 50lb child be as likely to survive being shot by an S.L.R. as a 200lb adult of the same health ? I don't believe so .







Intuitively , if I would place a damage cap it would be the higher of 4x Dam X Wound Modifier and 2x Hit Points with vital hits having no limit .

This would thus for H.P. 10 Mr Average cap M4A1 at 20 {4d+2 pi is 4.5 dice and pi =1 so : 4.5 x 4 = 18 which is less than H.P.10 x 2 = 20} , S&W Model 29 .44 Magnum at 21 {3.5 x 4 x 1.5 =21} and Barrett M82A1 at 72 {12 x 4 x 1.5 = I drink your milkshake} .
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Old 09-21-2015, 06:18 AM   #12
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Default Re: Actual Impaling Question

Under the over penetration rules the person with far fewer hit points will bleed out much faster than the one with more hit points.
There is an argument to be made that the Pi wounding modifier could keep going up with no maximum number of + on the end.
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Old 09-21-2015, 06:30 AM   #13
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Default Re: Actual Impaling Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Frost View Post
The High Tech rule on p162 is very unrealistic for more powerful rifles and machineguns even if wound modifiers are employed .

12.7 x 99mm and up will literally tear a human torso apart with just single shots in ways impossible for a Human to survive .
For that matter , I highly doubt that 338 Lapua Magnum is as survivable as 7.62 x 51mm on an average torso hit .
Would a HT10 50lb child be as likely to survive being shot by an S.L.R. as a 200lb adult of the same health ? I don't believe so .
.
Thing is you have survivability and instant death. These are different things. For long term survivability the important point is the subsequent bleeding rolls. Remember it specifically says you use the actual total injury rolled not the capped amount actually applied to calculate the bleeding penalty

So 12.7x99mm is what 7dx2 Pi+ so that's an average 73.5 injury for bleeding rolls, even if only HT (or HT x 1.5, depending on reading/POV) points is directly taken as injury instantly.


So that's what bleeding at -14? Don't fancy that much even with TL8 first aid, remember on critical fails you bleed for 3 hp. (Even if you cap the max penalty at -10 it's not great).

Obviously you hit a vital or the skull (or any other locations without a cap so that also face, neck and arteries/veins) and it is an instant game over.

Hit a limb/extremity and it's limb/extremity removed/destroyed, and bleeding is less even with the injury rules in MA, this is the "best" wound to get.

On the Lapua, it does more damage the 7.62mm so will bleed worse,

the 50lb child has less HP so will bleed out quicker. Although in reality smaller torso and same sized wound channel means more chance of getting a vital, so I might increase the 1 in 6 rule* as well, but bleeding out quicker probably suffices. Luckily not something that has come up in my games!


Anyway the point being that even larger bullets are not instant death unless they hit something instantly deadly. So a regular 12.7x99mm will not tear a human torso apart. Chances are it will leave a really big hole that it will be very hard to stop you bleeding out from though.

Whet gets slightly more complicated is such larger rounds might end up being something extra on top maybe involving some explosive, which if it actually goes off while still inside a human body (and not after it exited out the back) might do more damage. And the rules for internal explosion handle that by having even small explosions do quite lot of damage.


Take that Mauser MG151/20, 20x82mm in HT, thats doing 7dx2 Pi++ but capped at HT (or HTx2) don't even think about the bleeding rolls (but they are -19 on avg). But if it goes off inside it comes with a 2d ex cr internal explosion which will be on average another 21 HP lost, oh and fragment damage of course.

If you remember the scene in Saving Private Ryan where they are swarming the tank with the sticky bombs and the Germans further back are trying to shot them off, that's what we're talking about.

*although this would have implications for oversized weapons hitting regular sized targets as well so may be a can of worms

Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-22-2015 at 04:10 AM.
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Old 09-21-2015, 09:51 AM   #14
chandley
 
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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I'd make it a factor of damage rolled, the thing is since Sw Imp is likely to be more than Thr Imp anyway you'll still have a harder time removing a Sw Imp weapons as a Thr Imp. You just won't have the current situation where if just catch you for 1 point of daamge with a Sw Imp weapon, I get it stuck but can impale you with spear for 10 points of damage and not risk getting stuck
Technical Grappling might have solved this for you already: Swing Impaling apply CP equal to the basic damage. You could adopt an addition that thrust imp also does so if it over penetrates. You would then need to "attack" those CP to unstick the weapon. While the result isnt clearly spelled out, the implication is as you reduce the "stuck" CPs, they translate 1 for 2 into further damage.
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Old 09-21-2015, 02:46 PM   #15
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Default Re: Actual Impaling Question

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Originally Posted by chandley View Post
Technical Grappling might have solved this for you already: Swing Impaling apply CP equal to the basic damage. You could adopt an addition that thrust imp also does so if it over penetrates. You would then need to "attack" those CP to unstick the weapon. While the result isnt clearly spelled out, the implication is as you reduce the "stuck" CPs, they translate 1 for 2 into further damage.
That description makes me think of a giant fighting hobbits. He has to fling them off his sword every now and then.

Or the "meme" of "Have you ever been so mad that you a mother-f***** with another mother-f*****?" When the object/person impaled on your weapon is light enough that you could still wield them stuck together.
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Old 09-21-2015, 04:14 PM   #16
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When the object/person impaled on your weapon is light enough that you could still wield them stuck together.
My minotaur wore goblins on his horns as a jaunty hat.
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Old 09-21-2015, 04:23 PM   #17
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My minotaur wore goblins on his horns as a jaunty hat.
But did he call it macaroni?
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Old 09-22-2015, 08:26 AM   #18
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But did he call it macaroni?
That's a really long word for Mrugnak.
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Old 09-22-2015, 09:21 AM   #19
chandley
 
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Default Re: Actual Impaling Question

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
That description makes me think of a giant fighting hobbits. He has to fling them off his sword every now and then.

Or the "meme" of "Have you ever been so mad that you a mother-f***** with another mother-f*****?" When the object/person impaled on your weapon is light enough that you could still wield them stuck together.
We had a thread about using impaled opponents as weapons a while ago. Or just grabbed opponents, cant remember now. I suggested treating them as clubs and using the rules in Supers to figure minST etc.
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Old 09-22-2015, 11:10 AM   #20
Mr Frost
 
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Default Re: Actual Impaling Question

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Thing is you have survivability and instant death. These are different things. For long term survivability the important point is the subsequent bleeding rolls. Remember it specifically says you use the actual total injury rolled not the capped amount actually applied to calculate the bleeding penalty

So 12.7x99mm is what 7dx2 Pi+ so that's an average 73.5 injury for bleeding rolls, even if only HT (or HT x 1.5, depending on reading/POV) points is directly taken as injury instantly.


So that's what bleeding at -14? Don't fancy that much even with TL8 first aid, remember on critical fails you bleed for 3 hp. (Even if you cap the max penalty at -10 it's not great).

Obviously you hit a vital or the skull (or any other locations without a cap so that also face, neck and arteries/veins) and it is an instant game over.

Hit a limb/extremity and it's limb/extremity removed/destroyed, and bleeding is less even with the injury rules in MA, this is the "best" wound to get.

On the Lapua, it does more damage the 7.62mm so will bleed worse,

the 50lb child has less HP so will bleed out quicker. Although in reality smaller torso and same sized wound channel means more chance of getting a vital, so I might increase the 1 in 6 rule* as well, but bleeding out quicker probably suffices. Luckily not something that has come up in my games!


Anyway the point being that even larger bullets are not instant death unless they hit something instantly deadly. So a regular 12.7x99mm will not tear a human torso apart. Chances are it will leave a really big hole that it will be very hard to stop you bleeding out from though.

Whet gets slightly more complicated is such larger rounds might end up being something extra on top maybe involving some explosive, which if it actually goes off while still inside a human body (and not after it exited out the back) might do more damage. And the rules for internal explosion handle that by having even small explosions do quite lot of damage.


Take that Mauser MG151/20, 20x82mm in HT, thats doing 7dx2 Pi++ but capped at HT (or HTx2) don't even think about the bleeding rolls (but they are -19 on avg). But if it goes off inside it comes with a 2d ex cr internal explosion which will be on average another 21 HP lost, oh and fragment damage of course.

If you remember the scene in Saving Private Ryan where they are swarming the tank with the sticky bombs and the Germans further back are trying to shot them off, that's what we're talking about.

*although this would have implications for over sized weapons hitting regular sized targets as well so may be a can of worms
12.7 x 99mm torso hit within effective range is instant death !
The temporary wound cavity expands so far beyond the bodies' recoverable elastic limit it bursts apart like a balloon .
S.O.P. when hit by .50 BMG is to spread yourself out over 10 square meters in several pieces then discover if there is an afterlife only in reverse order .
It is actually one of only 2 things Sylvester Stallone has ever portrayed accurately in a movie , those things being : shortness and what happens to a Human that is shot within 1,000 meters by 12.7 x 99mm or greater .



Also , the 20mm H.E. you mention at the end generally had fuses meant for harder material than flesh such as Duralumin-like alloys {it was an anti-aircraft gun} and might not even trigger passing through a Human torso {I pretty certain Minengescho▀ was not available in 20 x 138b} .
The FlaK 38 has well over twice the .50 BMGs' muzzle energy and that effect they showed of bodies violently disintegrating would happen entirely from kinetic energy transfer {basically inducing the flesh to accellerate away from the projectile so energetically it literally rips its' self to pieces} .






Here is an example of why it matters :
*The target is H.T. 10 and hits are to torso
*Weapon A delivers a blowthrough maximum damage of 20
*Weapon B delivers a blowthrough maximum damage of 30
*To reduce subject to -50 Hit Points where upon survival is impossible requires 3 hits From Weapon A but only 2 from Weapon B
*If both did only 10 Hit Points , not only would it require 6 hits for both but would also require the same from 12.7 x 99 , 14.5 mm soviet , 15mm Besa etc {or 4 if wound modifiers are factored in} which is purely cinematic {again , it takes exactly 1 in real life} .






If the results with My proposed system are too much with bleeding rules factored on total damage , then factor bleeding on My blowthrough limits ; I can't see armour piercing bullets causing as much as ball any way .
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