[RPM] Dispelling

[Kalzazz]

A few questions

1. If the Dispel needs a Greater effect, does the Extra Energy required need to also be multiplied by the Greater Effect modifier?

2. How does Dispelling an Advantage with the Magic -10% work? (I assume you should be able to do so, but how do you find the energy needed?)

2b. Similarly, how do you dispel a Magic Magic spell?

3. How does a Magic Magic Dispel work against a RPM ritual?

3b. Similarly, the Strike of Negation Imbuement

Inquiring minds want to know!

Inquiring minds probably expect they will be given a pg number in RPM and said 'look at this doofus', but they alas have not actually found this themselves in RPM, oops!

[Lia Valenth]

These are not stupid questions, I am unsure how to do any of them.

However, I would look into casting a spell that modifies something so it has Altered Trait: Mana Damper 4 (turning even a High Mana area into No Mana, unless I am mistaken). That should disable any magic on their person, add Area of Effect to make an antimagic field.
Antimagic fields should dispell just about anything, but be warned that it will effect your spells.

[ericthered]

to question 1: no, the only thing that really matters is absolute point count. This is true because if you cast two spells that share a path and effect on the same subject the larger of the two does away with the smaller as an effect of magic not stacking. In the same way, a dispel only need to have more energy regardless of its lesser/greater status.

I'm not sure how to handle 2 and 3. 3 should work, but I'm not sure how.

2a: I'd probably just say 'Destroy Magic' + altered traits. It might even be a lesser effect, but if you paid for greater I'd probably let it suppress ALL magic traits up to the limit paid for.

really not sure on the rest. That's cross system mechanics, which usually doesn't end well.

[dfinlay]

For 2, I would make one of the following rulings:
-Figure out (or ballpark) the energy cost to produce the same effect (ex: If it was an Innate Attack, the cost to make it an attack spell and dispell that
-Figure out (or ballpark) the energy cost to bestow the advantage (For the same Innate Attack, this is the energy cost to grant a caster Innate Attack rather than to cast a single attack)
Not sure which is more balanced, but I'm leaning towards the second.

For 3, that really depends on the setting's metaphysics. I could totally buy a setting where they are separate forces and cannot dispell each other or one where they counter each other in such a way that it is far easier to counter the other form of magic. Even if they both dispell either with the same potency, the dispelling the two different magic systems may or may not be considered separate rituals/spells. If I wanted them to play on even footing, though, I'd probably use the first ruling above for RPM dispelling GURPS magic - price the spell as a ritual. I don't know the other way around, as I don't use GURPS Magic and don't know its dispelling mechanics.

Also note that as far as I know (and I could be wrong), GURPS Magic and RPM were not made to be used together and aren;t balanced against each other.

[Nereidalbel]

For 2a, I'd use Greater Destroy Magic, Altered Traits, and price it as a disadvantage equal to the cost of the advantage.

2b: either you can't do it at all, or, you figure out how much energy it would cost in RPM.

3: Resists with the highest Path skill used by the caster.

[Humabout]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

A few questions
2. How does Dispelling an Advantage with the Magic -10% work? (I assume you should be able to do so, but how do you find the energy needed?)

I'd just use Altered Traits to remove the advantage. Pricing is in Thaum:RPM.

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

3b. Similarly, the Strike of Negation Imbuement

This one isn't covered to my knowledge, but I was pondering it just yesterday. I came up with two approaches, between which I have yet to decide. Option 1 lets Strike of Negation accumulate energy with every hit, and once that energy is equal to the energy in the rituals affecting the target, they get dispelled (I'd probably use some multiplier on MoS to speed up the process), and Option 2 is just forcing a Quick Contest between Strike of Negation and the rituals. The latter is faster and more powerful, but the former is more in form with how RPM works.

Thinking on this as I type, Using Option 1, taking additional penalties to the roll could increase the multiplier on MoS. So the rewards increase if you succeed, but the odds of failure mount, as well. As of writing this, I'm leaning toward Option 1.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

For 2a, I'd use Greater Destroy Magic, Altered Traits, and price it as a disadvantage equal to the cost of the advantage.

Lesser effect vs. Greater effect. I can see arguments both ways. On the one hand, you can take away most advantages with a greater destroy body or destroy mind. I think that if you got the discount, they should be able to hamper your ability for a lesser effect: you got a discount, so they get a discount. If magic is already in play, stopping it is a minor effect, not a major one.

On the other hand,

Greater Destroy Magic can wipe out a caster’s mana reserve, remove his Magery or Ritual Adept advantages, give someone else Magic Resistance, or temporarily suppress the abilities of a place of power or enchanted item.

Which deals with advantages. They don't have the magic PM on them, but I'd say that the greater effect will work for sure. I suspect that raw leans towards greater but as a GM I'd personally allow lesser.

[Kalzazz]

The box on Mixing Magic systems notes "However, it can be easily mixed with other magic systems.", so don't think trying to use Magic Magic and Imbuements alongside it would cause to many issues

[starslayer]

I'm going to weigh in with the opinions listed here.

RPM for dispelling greater vs lesser- total energy cost makes sense, because one could achieve a functional 'dispel' by doing an equal effect that does effectively nothing (Say displacing someone's +15 striking ST enhancement by giving them ESD with a very long duration and 1 more energy cost).

RPM vs advantages with the -10% magic effect: Advantage penalties have to come up in play, that RPM can cancel any advantage via a greater effect should indicate that magical advantages are easier to cancel, so having a dispel of a magical advantage always be a lesser effect makes sense. You still need to have the energy required to negate the advantage.

RPM vs magic magic: Because magic magic is all about absolutes, I would probably look at something that is similarly absolute- granting manna damper 4 or 5 with no duration is pretty absolute and would disrupt any magic magic spell- then its just a matter of getting the manna damper to the area in question (speed, range, etc- spells are effectively weightless so subject weight can be ignored, and once the spell has destroyed itself the effect will end), the '0 area on an normally area based advantage' can be a special effect. A suppress spell for magical items would be otherwise identical but need a duration.

Strike of negation vs RPM: I would have the strike of negation remove its damage in energy from the spell- this means that if the spell has no extra energy placed into it to protect it from exactly this sort of manipulation it is immediately dispelled. If imbuements exist in the same game world as RPM casters may want to put a few points of extra energy to 'armour' there spells against strike of negation.

Strike of negation vs mage with a charm/hanging spell ritual : As above the strike of negation will remove its damage in energy from the target: Active spells first, then hanging rituals, then charms. An attacker with strike of negation can target specific effects with a targeted roll (-3), but to move outside the normal order would need to effectively bypass armour (-9) (so -21 to target a specific charm if the caster has active effects and hanging rituals).

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

1. If the Dispel needs a Greater effect, does the Extra Energy required need to also be multiplied by the Greater Effect modifier?

No, GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic (p. 18) seems to be pretty clear here: you add an additional cost in Extra Energy equal to the original cost of the spell itself.

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

2. How does Dispelling an Advantage with the Magic -10% work? (I assume you should be able to do so, but how do you find the energy needed?)

Altered Traits giving a disadvantage worth the same amount of points of the advantage.

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

2b. Similarly, how do you dispel a Magic Magic spell?

This is...hard. Magic and RPM are not really supposed to interact in any way. Interactions Between Magic Systems (GURPS Thaumatology, p. 222) is required reading. That said, I've used my "5 energy = 1 FP" rule in the past. So figure out the total FP it would cost to cast the spell (ignore the reduction for high skill!), multiply by 5, and treat that as the total energy you need to dispell it with RPM.

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

3. How does a Magic Magic Dispel work against a RPM ritual?

Roll your skill level of Dispel Magic vs. the effective Path skill of the spell - add +1 per 5 points put into Extra Energy.

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

3b. Similarly, the Strike of Negation Imbuement

Use the above rules.