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Old 08-25-2016, 08:28 AM   #41
Kalzazz
 
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

Another example. Say I want a thrusting greatsword as Sig gear, 900 money, 2pts, well and good.

I want my sword to be balanced. That costs . . . 7 more points!

I could raise my Two Handed Sword skill and have 3pts left over
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Old 08-25-2016, 09:02 AM   #42
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
Another example. Say I want a thrusting greatsword as Sig gear, 900 money, 2pts, well and good.

I want my sword to be balanced. That costs . . . 7 more points!

I could raise my Two Handed Sword skill and have 3pts left over
Yeah, I'm pretty convinced that they we're not thinking of the Low Tech add on when they wrote signature gear. And Certainly didnt consider sig gear when coming up with prices for Low Techs options.

But thats what Low Tech is, Options.

Prices are based I think on Rarity... it should be fairly rare to find a smith with enough skill to balance a weapon normally unbalanced.

( I didnt even know that was in low tech btw)

or finding a master tailor, or an armorer who can flute.

Thats why these things are so expensive. I think, inherently, they are not meant to be " start at play" options.

It's true not everyone plays that typical, progression type of Game, where all players start off as hero wannabe's .

But I think the books are written with that assumption, in many cases.


In the real world, like in the books, Pricing is related to supply and demand right? Even artificially so, look at the price of Daimonds right now and try and reconcile the fact that if more we're released into circulation (they're sitting in a vault somewhere). My fiance's ring would be worth less.

Another example, my fiance's, Beanie Baby we just found out, is from like 1994 and worth 1,000$ .... We're talking about a tiny doll filled with pvc pellets.



So yeah, price is virtually never equal to Value, Character Points are all about Value...price is price.


I think, when creating options like master tailoring they we're trying to reflect that their is only a handful of people usually capable of doing this.
And so thats why its so high, and its meant to be worked up too.


You'd have to drastically alter the amount of money signature gear grants, I think that, is the simplest answer for this. ANd someone else suggested it a few pages back.

Instead of 500 per point maybe like 5,000 or whatever.

And as long as everyone can get super awesome items its fair and balanced, and as long as the challenges they face are still challenging even with all those super awesome items then the game is still fun.

You'd probably end up with more of a cinematic game.
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Old 08-25-2016, 09:02 AM   #43
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
Another example. Say I want a thrusting greatsword as Sig gear, 900 money, 2pts, well and good.

I want my sword to be balanced. That costs . . . 7 more points!

I could raise my Two Handed Sword skill and have 3pts left over
Or you could buy weapon bond and have 6 points left over. Or buy both and get a net plus 2 and have 2 points left over.
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Old 08-25-2016, 10:48 AM   #44
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

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Originally Posted by Lucian View Post
Yeah, I'm pretty convinced that they we're not thinking of the Low Tech add on when they wrote signature gear. And Certainly didnt consider sig gear when coming up with prices for Low Techs options.

But thats what Low Tech is, Options.
Two-handed swords and Fine blades are both in the Basic Set and you can do the same thing with Striking ST One Attack Only. This is core stuff, and the problem has been with us since 4e started.

But yes, this is for more cinematic games - it's nonsensical for a peasant boy to inherit a super awesome Very Fine sword, or awesome set of gothic plate, or a Millenium Falcon - but that's what happens in stories.
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Old 08-25-2016, 10:54 AM   #45
Kalzazz
 
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

Making your great sword fine or very fine as Sig gear is viable, a tradeoff but not a horrible mistake like making it balanced

Spend 6 CP to make it fine? +1 to damage and its harder to break . . . spending 5pts on Striking ST won't guarantee +1 thrust damage. Striking ST (my sword only) would be a better deal, but well, not as easy to break is nice

26 more to make it very fine? Tricky, but maybe not to bad an idea

Edit - as a note, there are ordinary people out there whose grandparents or someone left them a classic Corvette or other awesome valuable thing

Or finding rare baseball cards stuck in the attic

So its improbable but not impossible that Tam al' Thor found a really sweet sword in the war and brought it back and gave it to his kid

People even today find the live grenades, mines and artillery shells grand dad brought back from the world wars

My dad brought a jeep home with him from Korea

Last edited by Kalzazz; 08-25-2016 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 08-25-2016, 11:13 AM   #46
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

The most you should ever have to pay to just get gear once is 36 points because:
Patron (Incalculable assets; Constantly; Equipment +100%, Secret* -50%, Favor x1/5) [36]
For $400k armor in a game with $1000 in starting wealth you only need [12]. Note though, this equipment doesn't have "plot protection" like Signature Gear provides.

* Your benefactor doesn't literally have to be secret here, but this limitation still effectively applies because leaving you gear to find or inherit is purely indirect aid.

EDIT: Plot protection is arguably just a +50% cosmic modifier so this suggests some caps for signature gear:
  • Signature Gear worth up to $1000 times starting wealth should cap at [16] points.
  • Up to $10000 times starting wealth should cap at [24] points.
  • Up to $100,000 times starting wealth should cap at [32] points.
  • Up to 1 million times starting wealth should cap at [40] points.
  • An absolute cap of [48] points for signature gear of any value.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 08-25-2016 at 01:10 PM. Reason: Or, you know I could do math correctly.
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Old 08-25-2016, 01:32 PM   #47
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
The most you should ever have to pay to just get gear once is 36 points because:
Patron (Incalculable assets; Constantly; Equipment +100%, Secret* -50%, Favor x1/5) [36]
For $400k armor in a game with $1000 in starting wealth you only need [12]. Note though, this equipment doesn't have "plot protection" like Signature Gear provides.

* Your benefactor doesn't literally have to be secret here, but this limitation still effectively applies because leaving you gear to find or inherit is purely indirect aid.

EDIT: Plot protection is arguably just a +50% cosmic modifier so this suggests some caps for signature gear:
  • Signature Gear worth up to $1000 times starting wealth should cap at [16] points.
  • Up to $10000 times starting wealth should cap at [24] points.
  • Up to $100,000 times starting wealth should cap at [32] points.
  • Up to 1 million times starting wealth should cap at [40] points.
  • An absolute cap of [48] points for signature gear of any value.
The highest category of Patron does not have literally incalculable assets. It says "basically incalculable" and the example organisations given are a national government and a giant multinational organization.

Also seems like a dubious assumption that the Patron would give out equipment worth as much as all its assets....
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Old 08-25-2016, 01:38 PM   #48
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
The highest category of Patron does not have literally incalculable assets. It says "basically incalculable" and the example organisations given are a national government and a giant multinational organization.
Or a god, which therefore can include assets up to the entire universe. Besides any one item of adventuring gear which can be bought for money can obviously be purchased by at least the largest actors in an economy, otherwise the item wouldn't have a market price at all.

Quote:
Also seems like a dubious assumption that the Patron would give out equipment worth as much as all its assets....
In the typical case that the patron is deceased and you are inheriting his assets this is exactly the case. Typically most items aren't going to fall exactly on one of these breakpoints anyway. In the case of the $400k suit of armor capping at [16], it's $600k short of the cap in an TL3 game. Anything from $8000 to $1,000,000 should have that cap and $8000 is only .08% of that notional patron's assets.

Most reasonable signature gear is going to cost less than this cap in most campaigns, and I think you'd have to really stretch to come up with ones that would need the next cap, that wouldn't either actually justify a new Wealth level in their own right or be impossible to retain; i.e., if you inherit a castle you either are now effectively the lord of its lands or you can't actually hold it. It probably would be reasonable to cap Signature Gear at say 500 times wealth or something anyway (which still lets you get Flyn's armor for [16]).

Last edited by sir_pudding; 08-25-2016 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 08-25-2016, 02:01 PM   #49
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Or a god, which includes assets up to the entire universe. Besides any one item of adventuring gear which can be bought for money can obviously be purchased by the largest actors in an economy, otherwise the item wouldn't have a market price at all.


In the typical case that the patron is deceased and you are inheriting his assets this is exactly the case.
A god who "appears personally to intervene on your behalf". It does not say a god that sends you a universe's worth of equipment. It seems reasonable to not allow a god Patron to give you much more money than such mundane organisations. At least not without the Special Abilities enhancement.

There are things with a market price that would be too expensive for even the largest actors to buy. For example in the real world, certain kinds of software would be too expensive for any actor to design. Another example would be an enough antimatter to make an antimatter bomb (even though small amounts of antimatter could be bought).

Quote:
In the typical case that the patron is deceased and you are inheriting his assets this is exactly the case.
Where is that typical case stated?

Last edited by Andreas; 08-25-2016 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 08-25-2016, 02:16 PM   #50
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
A god who "appears personally to intervene on your behalf". It does not say a god that sends you a universe's worth of equipment. It seems reasonable to not allow a god Patron to give you much more money than such mundane organisations. At least not without the Special Abilities enhancement.
Sure, but that's more than enough money for any gear that actually exists in the campaign setting.

Quote:
There are things with a market price that would be too expensive for even the largest actors to buy. For example in the real world, certain kinds of software would be too expensive for any actor to design. Another example would be an enough anti-matter to make an anti-matter bomb.
These things don't actually exist, and therefore can't really be purchased (and don't have empirical - rather than theoretical - market prices).
Quote:
Where is that typical case stated?
Inheritance is a common fictional trope for this kind of thing. What are we talking about here, otherwise?

If you have the gear and not the supporting Wealth or an active Patron with that wealth then you are in a situation that whatever assets you had access to when you got the gear are either no longer there or inaccessible to you, regardless of how you got it; effectively, therefore, you did use 100% of that resource.

Besides, like I said, if you want to change it to 50%, or 75% or some other fraction of these ranges you'll still have a point where getting a one-use Patron to give you the equipment is cheaper than Signature Gear, which suggests a hard cap.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 08-25-2016 at 02:35 PM.
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