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Old 03-18-2015, 06:00 PM   #1
Moonsight
 
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Default In Nomine without Abrahamicism as a basis?

Even though In Nomine was originally written as a Christian basis game, however with the other religions included yet their scoffed off as "Dreams" created by humanity but yet Christianity is treated legitimately different which I highly find this highly problematic in it's core.

Which the main question is this, is there a way to dethrone Christianity/Abrahamicism as it's basis and present it as just like the other religions mythologies?
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Old 03-18-2015, 06:59 PM   #2
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Default Re: In Nomine without Abrahamicism as a basis?

The major issue I see with attempting this is the War. So much of the game is centered around the conflict between Heaven and Hell, down to the mechanics of dissonance and the potential drama of rising/falling. So you'd need an equivalent conflict where the PCs have at least implied choice as to which side to be on. (Even if the campaign is firmly on one side or the other, the NPCs don't know that). Or you'd need to find something else to fill the gap. I don't think In Nomine without the war would feel quite right.

It would probably be easier to work with just one religion at a time (Asuras versus Devas or Titans versus Gods would work as well as angels versus demons.) If you want to have multiple true religions, you'd probably need some sort of "ecumenical" conflict. Maybe an interventionist versus passivist conflict, or something else where guys from different systems could be on the same side. Or maybe "falleness" is the same across camps, and Lucifer and Apep and Lord Maya and Amatsu-Mikaboshi all rumble for turf in the variously named Outer Darknesses, while the Archangels, Asuras, polytheistic gods, and good spirits debate the nature of the Great Unknown from which creation springs, but generally try to stay in harmony with It.

If the players are going to be angels, and the existence of Devas of the Sword and Hawk-headed servitors of Thoth-Ammon is background color, you could probably leave character creation pretty much alone, excepting any changes made to the notion of the Marches. If the players can be from different faith systems, though, you'll probably want to limit the number of Superiors and Bands/Choirs available. Otherwise you wither windup with hundred of superiors and choirs, or the angels and demons having a large selection and everyone else having a paltry number. I think my advice would be to leave the Choirs and Bands alone for the most part (maybe add a couple of options or eliminate a couple as you see fit) and have them work the same way regardless of whether your superior is Michael or Horus. Maybe pare down the superiors list and go for 4 or 5 per faith.

Of course, their is room to play with the options. A particular faith may have a Band as a Choir or vice versa. Or maybe one faith has no fallen faction, and everybody works on the same side with more fractious internal politics. Maybe one faith has only one superior.
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Old 03-19-2015, 04:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: In Nomine without Abrahamicism as a basis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonsight View Post
Even though In Nomine was originally written as a Christian basis game, however with the other religions included yet their scoffed off as "Dreams" created by humanity but yet Christianity is treated legitimately different which I highly find this highly problematic in it's core.

Which the main question is this, is there a way to dethrone Christianity/Abrahamicism as it's basis and present it as just like the other religions mythologies?
Are we talking about changing from the bipolar Heaven/Hell structure of the universe to a multipolar, monopolar, or nonpolar one?

Or are we talking about keeping the bipolar setup but having Paradise and the Underworld be more inclusive and less tied to Abrahamicism?
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Old 03-19-2015, 05:16 PM   #4
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Default Re: In Nomine without Abrahamicism as a basis?

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Are we talking about changing from the bipolar Heaven/Hell structure of the universe to a multipolar, monopolar, or nonpolar one?
In this case you either don't have a Celestial plane, or have one divided into many regions instead of just two. Which means all the other pantheons aren't in the Far Marches, so what is there?

Maybe most significant gods are Superiors, so Zeus has his Mount Olympus 'Cathedral' and Odin has Vahalla, etc.

Maybe it goes that a god starts out as an Ethereal spirit in the Marches and as they gain more belief*, Essence sacrifices, Word strengthening they are able to grow their Ethereal Domain into a Cathedral reaching up to the Celestial Plane. So the towers of Blandine and Beleth are the rule, not the exceptions.

The Celestial plane doesn't have rigid borders as in canon, but has territory and borders, though perhaps not in the mundane geometry sense.

You still have bound servitors, dissonance conditions, and Words, but they aren't divided into two clear camps.

But do you still have the whole Falling and Redeeming process, and the mirror image Choirs and Bands?

* If we are going with the "gods need worshipers" premise.
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Old 03-19-2015, 05:34 PM   #5
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Default Re: In Nomine without Abrahamicism as a basis?

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Or are we talking about keeping the bipolar setup but having Paradise and the Underworld be more inclusive and less tied to Abrahamicism?
In this case you would still have two clear sides, but they aren't tied to the Abrahamic religious paradigms.

So you have a God, but he isn't the Old Testament guy, he is some more diffuse principle of Light, Knowledge, and Selflessness. And still very vague and inactive, though in this case he/it was always like that.

And instead of Lucifer as an active evil king, you have a principle of Darkness, Ignorance, and Selfishness, again diffuse, vague, and inactive.

The non-Abrahamic religions get incorporated into which ever side they fit better, likely with different bits of their mythology going to different sides.

So Odin has Vahalla in Paradise (Heaven), while Loki is down in the Underworld with Jotuns or the Ice Giants or whatever*.

Similarly the Greek Gods, Roman Gods, Hindu Gods, etc get split up accordingly.

Would there still be some form of central authority or government on each side, or is it more of a freeform where the various Superiors doing what they want? Do you get direct conflict within the sides, or between the servitors on the Corporeal and Ethereal Planes?

With two sides you still get the Falling, Redeeming, and mirror image Choirs and Band thing


* Pardon my shaky knowledge of Norse mythology.
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Old 03-23-2015, 06:34 AM   #6
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Default Re: In Nomine without Abrahamicism as a basis?

I think it's in the Marches book, but I'm not sure. Anyway the theory is presented that God is in fact just another Ethereal that gained the lion's share of power somehow and thus has the shiniest realm. I don't remember if this was a theory that some of the Gods in the Marches held, or if this was a GM option or even both, but I do remember it being there. If you take that and add to it that going to Heaven or Hell has nothing to do with if you believe in God or not. You could be a dyed in the wool Satanist, but if you reach your Destiny and not your Fate you go to Heaven. You could take that and try to change the conflict to the other gods trying to reclaim their proper place.
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Old 03-26-2015, 11:12 AM   #7
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Default Re: In Nomine without Abrahamicism as a basis?

Yeah, I forget exactly where the note is that alexondria mentions, but I suspect it's described in the Ethereal Player's Guide (which is practically a game all its own). Maybe the angels and the demons believe otherwise, but there's definitely material in the setting as-written to support the theory that Heaven and Hell are just two among many ethereal domains.

Where you go from there kind of depends on what you want to do with your game. Do you want Heaven and Hell to have more power lent by human belief, or do you want them to on even footing with every other religious or mythological system?
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Old 03-26-2015, 02:56 PM   #8
johndallman
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Default Re: In Nomine without Abrahamicism as a basis?

Game Master's Guide, "God is an Ethereal", p61. Also Ethereal Player's Guide, "Pagan Gods", p81.
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Old 03-27-2015, 11:20 AM   #9
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Default Re: In Nomine without Abrahamicism as a basis?

The email list has discussed alternate cosmologies on occasion.

See http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/resources.html for the links to the archives.
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Old 03-27-2015, 01:32 PM   #10
Archangel Beth
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Default Re: In Nomine without Abrahamicism as a basis?

The easiest way to kick the setting premise in the head is to take the EPG and assume that the "ethereal heresy" is right. Heaven and Hell are a ginormous Domain (or maybe a pair of them, one ruled by Lucifer, and the other ruled by who-knows-who? Heaven may be, in fact, a Domain with a "caul," as there are the Higher Heavens "within" the layer of the Lower Heavens. Or maybe the Higher Heavens is/are the Domain's ruler, who noms the Forces of anything that "ascends" there. Nom, nom, nom.)

Assume that celestial form is something that arises from the "celestial strand" -- it's a native ability -- or from being tied to one of the linked Heaven/Hell Domains. Or just forbid it. Or make it something that (other) ethereals can do as well, perhaps requiring a Song, some kind of Domain attunement, etc.

The simple choices is to let the current Heaven/Hell supremacy (at least, in some parts of the world...) stand, so you can use most stuff as-is. But you could tinker other pantheons' power.

More extreme, you can give things a twist -- the Abrahanic deity not only isn't "the supreme being," but it stole godhead from some other, true pantheon! (And then Lucifer stole some from it...) How much was stolen, how much retained by the originals... Up to the GM. Everything the angels and demons think they know... Well, they were created with those memories. Poor Seraphim...

Kick that idea in the tail a little. The battle is between Good and Evil, Entropy and Creation, and the forms that the sides take are nothing but window-dressing. The Purity Campaign either Never Happened, or was a result of a powerful Good-Aligned entity going rogue and trying to gather more power for itself. (No wonder Uriel got yoinked up! It was literally trying to cut off pieces of Good in order to concentrate power in its sphere of influence!) The Good, Pro-Human gods are all at least as allied as Michael and Novalis (or Gabriel and Dominic... or Eli and Dominic...) -- they all desire humanity to survive and reach its full potential, even if they have different opinions about how that works.

(As someone else said, this then results in the possibility that you'll have Valkyries of the Sword or similar. The GM can either roll with this, or declare that the different Faces of Good do not always have compatible mechanics, so even if an Archangel wants to reward one of Valhalla's finest, the AA could only bestow Servitor Attunements or Distinctions -- things that don't much depend on the nature of the being receiving them, unlike many/most Choir Attunements. And that Valkyries are just too different from angels for an Archangel to blend Word and Nature and get a new "choir" attunement out of it.)

Meanwhile, Evil takes many faces as well...

You then have to use the GMG "dials" to adjust Contrast, Darkness, etc. Trickster gods may or may not be "evil" even if they're often evil-aligned, if contrast is low! But even if contrast is high... hey, default IN has Janus, y'know?
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