Does Lucifer still serve light?

[Magicwillnz]

I have trouble believing that. In In Nomine at least. It isn't selfish enough. He gains nothing. Ruling a universe of darkness isn't a huge gain. Killing the Symphony achieves nothing, it doesn't help him, ruling the symphony on the other hand ... that is selfish.

Lucifer in my opinion is not any kind of human sort of evil. Like all Balseraphs he wants to enforce his will on the Symphony so that he's the one dictating truth. He doesn't need to "rule" over anything, once everything is gone only his will exists, pure and uninterrupted. He doesn't like Hell or other Demons either, since it's not an extension of his Will.

Lucifer doesn't want a "world" of darkness, he wants ONLY darkness, where he can be alone with his selfish Will. Lucifer is essentially committing a reverse suicide, removing himself from the universe by destroying it, simply because it doesn't fit in with his selfish worldview. Lucifer is committing the SUPREME act of selfishness.

As for whether Lucifer is a tool of God, he could very well be, but I doubt he is consciously serving God.

[mondu_the_fat]

Originally Posted by Magicwillnz

Lucifer doesn't want a "world" of darkness, he wants ONLY darkness, where he can be alone with his selfish Will. Lucifer is essentially committing a reverse suicide, removing himself from the universe by destroying it, simply because it doesn't fit in with his selfish worldview. Lucifer is committing the SUPREME act of selfishness.

That seems to fit IN Malphas more than it fits Lucifer.

My view of Lucifer in IN is that he's a demon who wants to rule, but still recognizes that God could stomp him flat if He really wanted to. Being in that situation and being a Balseraph, he tells himself that he's fighting for the right to self-rule.

There are clues that point that he wants to rule instead of simply destroy. Belial's write-up mentions that Lucifer doesn't want a nuclear holocaust. The case of Legion and the plague (IIRC) are other examples that show that he wants humans left over to push around.

Whether he unwittingly serves God is up to debate. Certainly, there is some evidence to that. The write up on Yves and Chronos from Heaven and Hell seem to indicate that God simply is. That is, not good and evil as humans would see it, but someone who is also learning as the symphony evolves. In that case Lucifer _would_ be merely a part of this learning process.

[Kamin]

I don't know anything about In Nomine, but perhaps Lucifer wants to bring this world to darkness, and keep all others to play with?

[Glamourweaver]

I think Lucifer wants an end to "the Symphony", but not "Existence". The final victory of Hell will mean the Symphony itself will reach its Fate (at which point Yves ceases to exist, the potential of Destiny no longer existing & Kronos is realized - transcending into everything & nothing). Objective Truth ceases and personal will is all that is left. Everything becomes a great mesh of personal symphonies rather than a single universal one. (Lilith is happy as the individual is free from the chains of the whole, Asmodeus is happy because universal justice has given way to those of stronger will binding others to their personal rules, Malphas is happy because in this everyone is fundamentally alone). Essentially all the universe becomes a Cacophany of personal solipsistic realities imposing their wills upon each other. Lucifer being the being of strongest Will, will naturally rise to the top.

[Magicwillnz]

I think Lucifer wants an end to "the Symphony", but not "Existence". The final victory of Hell will mean the Symphony itself will reach its Fate (at which point Yves ceases to exist, the potential of Destiny no longer existing & Kronos is realized - transcending into everything & nothing). Objective Truth ceases and personal will is all that is left. Everything becomes a great mesh of personal symphonies rather than a single universal one. (Lilith is happy as the individual is free from the chains of the whole, Asmodeus is happy because universal justice has given way to those of stronger will binding others to their personal rules, Malphas is happy because in this everyone is fundamentally alone). Essentially all the universe becomes a Cacophany of personal solipsistic realities imposing their wills upon each other. Lucifer being the being of strongest Will, will naturally rise to the top.

I Glamourweave's idea. It makes sense. And it fits well.

[Magicwillnz]

*ahem* I *like* glamourweaves idea. Sorry.

[Methariel]

Originally Posted by mondu_the_fat

That seems to fit IN Malphas more than it fits Lucifer.

Well, I don't think so. Malphas wants isolation of everything, not nonexistence.

Originally Posted by mondu_the_fat

There are clues that point that he wants to rule instead of simply destroy. Belial's write-up mentions that Lucifer doesn't want a nuclear holocaust. The case of Legion and the plague (IIRC) are other examples that show that he wants humans left over to push around.

Maybe he just doesn't want a nuclear holocaust because there'd be something that survived it (cockroaches, for example, are said to survive such catastrophes). Perhaps he's still looking for the fool-proof way to annihilate the Symphony. The whole Symphony (every star, planet, bit of dust, animal, human, angel, etc.).
I don't think that he needs some reasonable cause for this. Sometimes people do things because they're angry that will not only harm others, but themselves, too. Think of a child that destroys some toy just because she has to share it with another.
So the "total darkness"-approach isn't to be dismissed, in my opinion.
But Glamourweaver's idea is also very striking...
Hm, it seems that Lucifer's plans, motives and aims are quite...ineffable.
And I like that.

Originally Posted by mondu_the_fat

The write up on Yves and Chronos from Heaven and Hell seem to indicate that God simply is. That is, not good and evil as humans would see it, but someone who is also learning as the symphony evolves.

That brings a quote to my mind. I just heard it the other day. I think it's from the novel "Josef und seine Brüder" by Heinrich Mann (a German author). It translates to this:
"God is not Good. God is everything. And He is holy."
(I hope I quoted correctly.)

Methariel

[chris the cynic]

If you guys have not noticed I'm interested in theory and story even more than gameplay itself. What can I say, I'm odd. Anyway there's something that's been in my head since I first read of Legion, I was actually thinking of making a topic of it to see if anyone else was thinking along similar lines. Maybe I still will, it would ensure people didn't miss it buried in the second page of a Lucifer topic.

Anyway:

Originally Posted by Methariel

That brings a quote to my mind. I just heard it the other day. I think it's from the novel "Josef und seine Brüder" by Heinrich Mann (a German author). It translates to this:
"God is not Good. God is everything. And He is holy."
(I hope I quoted correctly.)

If God is everything, which In Nomine seems to take as canon, then when you control something you control part of God, even if that something is only yourself. The larger that something is the more of God you control.

Legion was controlling people in great numbers, and not like a kryo but instead like a Shedite, meaning he was controlling their minds and their bodies. The more he controlled the more of god he controlled (right?) so what if he hadn't been stopped? What if Heaven and Hell hadn't teamed up, or had failed anyway?

Well he'd control a larger and larger part of god right? Spread across the face of the earth. Well if he controlled all humans, that must be a large enough fragment of god to bend they symphony to his will at least a little, right?

So why not start taking over celestials and ethereals, he's already the most powerful being beneath the Higher Heavens so why couldn't he?

And once he controlled everything, Heaven and Hell, the corporeal and the marches, what could the Higher Heavens possibly do against him? He would be the universe (after all why stop at one planet?) And once he finished upstairs he would become god, in totality.

At last there would be one god, and no aspect of that god would rebel against him. Never another rebellion or war, never another argument. All would be as god willed it.

Disturbing huh?

-

Obviously this makes a lot of assumptions in its logic but I think it flows from In Nomine canon pretty well. Certainly Legion had the only plan for replacing god (if that is what he wanted) that looked like it had a chance of success to me.

If there is a flaw in this logic, and there probably is, please point it out.

-

Actually I once had an idea for a setting or story, take your pick, that combined Legion and Lucifer, and thus fits into this thread sort of well. It combined three very different trains of thought (all questions):
1 What would happen if Legion won?
2 What would it take to make Lucifer redeem?
3 What if one universe declared war on another?

I started typing it up here, but it's rather long. Someone tell me whether or not you'd like to hear it.

[zogo]

Originally Posted by chris the cynic

If God is everything, which In Nomine seems to take as canon, then when you control something you control part of God, even if that something is only yourself.

This by the way is something that bothers me The nature of God is supposed to be CDaU but the Yves & Kronos writeups in Heaven and Hell; and the Yves writeup in Sup 3 come right out and say the nature of God.

[chris the cynic]

So you demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty?