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Old 12-11-2017, 01:57 PM   #1
Ultraviolet
 
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Default [TG] Question about Pick-up

TG p 24 lists a Pickup as a Quick Contest between attacker's Trained HT and the defender's Trained ST, DX or best Grappling skill.

Why HT and not ST, for the attacker?

It refers to Grappling Encumberance Table TG p8, for modifiers to the attack roll. While it does not *specifically* say you can spend CP from the initial Grapple, I assume you can. After all, the latter part of the manoeuvre says you can make grappling attacks on a picked-up foe for further use.

TG p8 Grappling Encumberance Table says under the definition for "Grappling Weight Modifier" that it applies to " all mass-based moves" and that training bonus can offset this penalty to a maximum of 0.

So if I have a training bonus from a grappling skill of +2 it:
1) grants me more CP for the initial grapple, by adding to Trained ST
2) gives a higher Trained HT for the contest to pick up
3) Reduces the penalty to Trained ST in the contest
4) CP from 1) can be spent to penalise foe's roll in the contest
Doesn't 2) and 3) mean the training bonus counts double? Is that right?
And does Fit/Very Fit add to Trained HT?

Exempli Gratia:
Tex has ST13, DX 14, Sumo Wrestling 16 (DX+2), Brawling 16 (DX+2), HT 13, BL 34. Training bonus for a Pick up does *not* use the fast progression for Sumo, but it does for the initial grapple. But Brawling uses the medium progression for most anything, so does the Pick up get the +1 training bonus?

He grapples a foe, and succeeds. He rolls CP for Trained ST of 15 => 1d+1, average roll of 4 CP.

Then he lifts the foe, let's say he heighs 220 lbs including a little gear. That's 220/34=6,47. Add 3 for 9,47, and table TG p8 gives us (for a value>9) a Grappling modifier of -7.

By spending a FP for extra effort BL is doubled for a single Pick up. That's 3+(220/68) =6,24 for a -1 modifier.

If based on Sumo, Tex rolls Trained HT of 13 -7= 6. Not impressive. Spending FP yields 13-1=12, that's kind of ok.

If based off Brawling, Tex rolls Trained ST of 14 -6 (Grappling mod offset by +1 training bonus) = 8. Still not impressive. Spending FP yields 14, much better.

Assuming the standard, nameless goons of my cliffhangers campaign the foe propably has ST, HT 12, DX 11 and skill 13 for the contest. If Tex blows all 4 CP the foe rolls against a mere 9. There is a good chance the Pick up will succeed. Tex is by no means superhuman, but he is focused and well trained.
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Old 12-11-2017, 02:38 PM   #2
DouglasCole
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Default Re: [TG] Question about Pick-up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
TG p 24 lists a Pickup as a Quick Contest between attacker's Trained HT and the defender's Trained ST, DX or best Grappling skill.

Why HT and not ST, for the attacker?
Because ST rolls need to perish in flames, and we hates them, tricksy Hobbitses, etc.

I don't care for rolling vs. ST. It's something that I've noted as being not terribly appropriate for a long time. When it came time to write TG, I asked Kromm and PK if I could avoid them, and they said yes.

Quote:
It refers to Grappling Encumberance Table TG p8, for modifiers to the attack roll. While it does not *specifically* say you can spend CP from the initial Grapple, I assume you can. After all, the latter part of the manoeuvre says you can make grappling attacks on a picked-up foe for further use.

TG p8 Grappling Encumberance Table says under the definition for "Grappling Weight Modifier" that it applies to " all mass-based moves" and that training bonus can offset this penalty to a maximum of 0.
The GM could allow spending of CP wherever it makes sense. I included a bunch of examples, but there are others that could qualify.

Quote:

So if I have a training bonus from a grappling skill of +2 it:
1) grants me more CP for the initial grapple, by adding to Trained ST
Yep.

Quote:
2) gives a higher Trained HT for the contest to pick up
Likewise, your knowledge of grappling allows you to brace yourself and use your ST properly without injury.

Quote:
3) Reduces the penalty to Trained ST in the contest
Yes, your training allows you to best offset the other guy's weight - this can be a big deal when small guys grapple big guys!

Quote:
4) CP from 1) can be spent to penalise foe's roll in the contest
Doesn't 2) and 3) mean the training bonus counts double? Is that right?
And does Fit/Very Fit add to Trained HT?
Yes, it counts double for that moment . . . but after that they're gone, no longer penalizing the foe, so you've done something short-term (get him airborne) at the possible cost of being less effective long-term (he's more mobile, and if he knows how to handle himself while lifted up, you're maybe less capable of countering him).

Quote:
Exempli Gratia:
Tex has ST13, DX 14, Sumo Wrestling 16 (DX+2), Brawling 16 (DX+2), HT 13, BL 34. Training bonus for a Pick up does *not* use the fast progression for Sumo, but it does for the initial grapple. But Brawling uses the medium progression for most anything, so does the Pick up get the +1 training bonus?
If anything, I'd say Sumo should get the bonus, but Brawling should not, based on what the skill is good at.

Quote:
He grapples a foe, and succeeds. He rolls CP for Trained ST of 15 => 1d+1, average roll of 4 CP.

Then he lifts the foe, let's say he heighs 220 lbs including a little gear. That's 220/34=6,47. Add 3 for 9,47, and table TG p8 gives us (for a value>9) a Grappling modifier of -7.

By spending a FP for extra effort BL is doubled for a single Pick up. That's 3+(220/68) =6,24 for a -1 modifier.

If based on Sumo, Tex rolls Trained HT of 13 -7= 6. Not impressive. Spending FP yields 13-1=12, that's kind of ok.

Note that the rules in Martial Arts simply disallow pickups if your target weighs more than 4x Basic Lift if I recall correctly, so the rules needed to give that flavor.

Quote:
If based off Brawling, Tex rolls Trained ST of 14 -6 (Grappling mod offset by +1 training bonus) = 8. Still not impressive. Spending FP yields 14, much better.

Assuming the standard, nameless goons of my cliffhangers campaign the foe propably has ST, HT 12, DX 11 and skill 13 for the contest. If Tex blows all 4 CP the foe rolls against a mere 9. There is a good chance the Pick up will succeed. Tex is by no means superhuman, but he is focused and well trained.
Sounds about right.
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Old 12-11-2017, 02:56 PM   #3
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Default Re: [TG] Question about Pick-up

Thanks again DouglesCole

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Because ST rolls need to perish in flames, and we hates them, tricksy Hobbitses, etc.
Good point, precious. In retrospect I did read that article at some point.
However, in my current Cliffhangers campaign the only other player who may be interested in TG, because he like the nasty strong-arm moves like Kiss the Carpet etc. plays a ST 18 character...he'd hate it if he had to roll vs HT suddenly. So I might have a hard time convincing the group to switch to TG. But his high BL makes for a small weight modifier, maybe even a positive one.

But does Fit/Very Fit apply to Trained HT rolls for grappling, strong-arm tricks?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Yes, it counts double for that moment . . . but after that they're gone, no longer penalizing the foe, so you've done something short-term (get him airborne) at the possible cost of being less effective long-term (he's more mobile, and if he knows how to handle himself while lifted up, you're maybe less capable of countering him).
I like it than CP expenditure is a gamble, and that you may have to make subsequent grapple attacks to accumulate sufficient advantage to do nasty things.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
If anything, I'd say Sumo should get the bonus, but Brawling should not, based on what the skill is good at.
I agree, but TG p48 'Training Bonus Table' doesn't quite say this for note [3]. It lists alot of other things to do with Sumo but not really Pick-up. However it does fit together with the other non-hold or -lock types of moves.
In which case Tex is even better!
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Old 12-11-2017, 06:24 PM   #4
DouglasCole
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Default Re: [TG] Question about Pick-up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
But does Fit/Very Fit apply to Trained HT rolls for grappling, strong-arm tricks?
Pretty sure it applies to all HT rolls, and this is a roll to use your muscles to avoid injury, so I'd say yes.

Quote:
I agree, but TG p48 'Training Bonus Table' doesn't quite say this for note [3]. It lists alot of other things to do with Sumo but not really Pick-up. However it does fit together with the other non-hold or -lock types of moves.
In which case Tex is even better!
Pickups are semi-cinematic, IIRC, so they might have been glossed over. I'd just make a ruling of the "this makes sense" variety and don't worry quite so much about that.
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