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Old 12-10-2014, 06:15 PM   #1
Erling
 
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Default Committed Attack - two steps and standing up

B368 states that standing up from kneeling costs entire step no matter how long character's step is.
MA100 states that Committed Attack provides two steps, not a single long step.

Does that mean one can take CA maneuver, stand up from kneeling (spending one step), move 1 hex (spending another step) and then attack?
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Old 12-10-2014, 07:22 PM   #2
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: Committed Attack - two steps and standing up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erling View Post
B368 states that standing up from kneeling costs entire step no matter how long character's step is.
MA100 states that Committed Attack provides two steps, not a single long step.
B368 also gives examples of people with two steps, since you can break up a 2+ hex step into separate steps (second paragraph, B368).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erling View Post
Does that mean one can take CA maneuver, stand up from kneeling (spending one step), move 1 hex (spending another step) and then attack?
No, for the same reason you couldn't do this with Move 11.
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Old 12-10-2014, 07:33 PM   #3
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Default Re: Committed Attack - two steps and standing up

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Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
B368 also gives examples of people with two steps, since you can break up a 2+ hex step into separate steps (second paragraph, B368).

No, for the same reason you couldn't do this with Move 11.
If we're being terribly specific, B368 gives an example of a person breaking a two-yard step into "you could move one yard, make an attack, and move another yard during an Attack maneuver." It doesn't seem to be saying that a two-yard step is the same as two one-yard steps. I'd say CA grants an extra step rather than adding to the first step, and that extra step can be used to stand from kneeling.
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Old 12-10-2014, 07:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: Committed Attack - two steps and standing up

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
If we're being terribly specific, B368 gives an example of a person breaking a two-yard step into "you could move one yard, make an attack, and move another yard during an Attack maneuver." It doesn't seem to be saying that a two-yard step is the same as two one-yard steps.
Please explain. The way I read this, it explains how to get a multi-yard step and then explains that if you have a multi-yard step you can break it up across a single turn. I think you're trying to make two cases out of something that is clearly one case.

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
I'd say CA grants an extra step rather than adding to the first step, and that extra step can be used to stand from kneeling.
Nothing in CA says to disregard the rules about multi-yard stepping. It's basically a way to get a multi-yard step without needing the next tier of Move that would give it to you normally.

Either way, the intention was to follow the rules on B368 without you needing to have Move 11 to be able to double-step or attack-and-fly-out.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:47 PM   #5
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Default Re: Committed Attack - two steps and standing up

Well, I was trying to be brief, but I'll cite the relevant rules now.

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STEP
Most maneuvers allow you to take a step, either before or after another action. You may step a distance equal to 1/10 your Move, but never less than one yard. Round all fractions up. Thus, Move 1-10 gives a one-yard step, Move 11-20 gives a two-yard step, and so on.
If you are capable of steps greater than one yard, you may break up your movement in a turn. For instance, if you had a two-yard step, you could move one yard, make an attack, and move another yard during an Attack maneuver.
You can use a step to go from a kneeling to a standing posture (or vice versa) instead of moving. This requires your entire step, no matter how far you could normally move.
Quote:
COMMITTED ATTACK
Movement: Step or two steps. A second step gives -2 to hit, making the total modifier +0 for Committed Attack (Determined) or -2 for Committed Attack (Strong). Movement can come before or after the attack. An attacker who takes two steps can step, attack, and step again – a tactic known as “attack and fly out.”
The way I read this is that CA gives another step, and "a step" is the same as "move (Move/10, round up) hexes." If I attack with Move 7, I can step one hex. If I attack with Move 17, I can step two hexes (or split that up into moving one hex, attacking and moving another hex; but standing from kneeling still uses the whole step). If I CA with Move 7, I can step twice, which means that I could turn the first step into standing from kneeling and the second into moving one hex. If I CA with Move 17, I can step twice, covering a total of 4 hexes (as each step is two yards), or only two if I need to turn one of the steps into standing from kneeling.

Essentially, I read it thus: a Step is a unit of movement. Basic Move determines the hexes traveled in a Step. Maneuver chosen determines allotment of no Steps, one Step or, for CA, two Steps. One Step can become standing from kneeling, or moving a number of hexes determined by Basic Move, and it's permissible to split up that movement.
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:57 AM   #6
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Default Re: Committed Attack - two steps and standing up

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Well, I was trying to be brief, but I'll cite the relevant rules now.

The way I read this is that CA gives another step, and "a step" is the same as "move (Move/10, round up) hexes." If I attack with Move 7, I can step one hex. If I attack with Move 17, I can step two hexes (or split that up into moving one hex, attacking and moving another hex; but standing from kneeling still uses the whole step). If I CA with Move 7, I can step twice, which means that I could turn the first step into standing from kneeling and the second into moving one hex. If I CA with Move 17, I can step twice, covering a total of 4 hexes (as each step is two yards), or only two if I need to turn one of the steps into standing from kneeling.

Essentially, I read it thus: a Step is a unit of movement. Basic Move determines the hexes traveled in a Step. Maneuver chosen determines allotment of no Steps, one Step or, for CA, two Steps. One Step can become standing from kneeling, or moving a number of hexes determined by Basic Move, and it's permissible to split up that movement.
That's how I read it too, as it calls it a "second" Step.

Last edited by The Benj; 12-11-2014 at 03:27 AM.
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Old 12-11-2014, 02:27 AM   #7
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Default Re: Committed Attack - two steps and standing up

Regardless of whether it's RAW, would this break anything?
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Old 12-11-2014, 03:23 AM   #8
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Default Re: Committed Attack - two steps and standing up

I always wondered if Martial Arts should have had Committed Attack and Technique design specify longer step rather than a second step. (I always think step should be given the ol' capitol "S" too, since it's a figured value.
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Old 12-11-2014, 03:58 AM   #9
Erling
 
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Default Re: Committed Attack - two steps and standing up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
B368 also gives examples of people with two steps, since you can break up a 2+ hex step into separate steps (second paragraph, B368)
Well, McAllister has already explained it. Real-world step and GURPS step aren't the same, as GURPS step can consist of two actual steps. CA technically provides two GURPS steps, not two real-world steps.
Otherwise it would be useless for those characters which are already capable of 2-yard step.

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
The way I read this is that CA gives another step, and "a step" is the same as "move (Move/10, round up) hexes." If I attack with Move 7, I can step one hex. If I attack with Move 17, I can step two hexes (or split that up into moving one hex, attacking and moving another hex; but standing from kneeling still uses the whole step). If I CA with Move 7, I can step twice, which means that I could turn the first step into standing from kneeling and the second into moving one hex. If I CA with Move 17, I can step twice, covering a total of 4 hexes (as each step is two yards), or only two if I need to turn one of the steps into standing from kneeling.
That's exactly how I read it. I hope Kromm will visit this thread and set the record straight.
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Old 12-11-2014, 06:00 AM   #10
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: Committed Attack - two steps and standing up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erling View Post
Well, McAllister has already explained it. Real-world step and GURPS step aren't the same, as GURPS step can consist of two actual steps. CA technically provides two GURPS steps, not two real-world steps.
It's possible I'm wrong, despite having originated that maneuver. But from alpha test until now, I have always run it at giving +1 yard length of step as defined by B368, not as two separate and discrete times you get access to a "step" action each of which is separately and discretely dealt with using the rules on B368.

FWIW, the authorial intention by me was the former, not the latter, and my reading of Martial Arts p. 99-100 and Basic Set p. 368 is that the wording supports that. The fact that we made sure to make it clear that the split-step of B368 is valid and common here (and cited real-world examples of how you'd used that with CA) doesn't change that reading to me.
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