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Old 11-10-2014, 12:19 PM   #1
vicky_molokh
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Default Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I'm referring to current grappling rules, i.e. GURPS Technical Grappling. While it provides new mechanisms for actual one-handed grappling, I didn't find anything about using the crook of the arm while holding a knife.
I think it's a bit of an overstatement to call TG the 'current' rules, just like it would be an overstatement to say that Ritual Path Magic are the 'current' rules of Magic/Thaumatology. More like, a different variant/branch of rules. Just like there's the Basic treatment of languages, the Speaking in Tongues treatment of languages, and the Colourless Ideas Sleep Furiously treatment of languages.
While TG is good, its existence is not a reason to pretend that MA was never published or that everything found in MA is now to be erased from the consciousness of GMs all over the world and to be never again included in figuring how a given martial-artsy action is to be resolved.
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Old 11-10-2014, 02:53 PM   #2
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I think it's a bit of an overstatement to call TG the 'current' rules, just like it would be an overstatement to say that Ritual Path Magic are the 'current' rules of Magic/Thaumatology.
No, I think it is a bit different. RPM is a different magic system, but there's room for lots of different magic systems even simultaneously. Techicnical Grappling is an expansion to the Basic Set and Martial Arts grappling rules that fixes a lot that seems broken. You can't use it and the older rules simultaneously.
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While TG is good, its existence is not a reason to pretend that MA was never published or that everything found in MA is now to be erased from the consciousness of GMs all over the world and to be never again included in figuring how a given martial-artsy action is to be resolved.
That would be silly, since Technical Grappling requires Martial Arts to work, and only covers grappling anyway.

I am a bit confused as to why you don't want to use it, since it does solve your problem.
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Old 11-10-2014, 04:26 PM   #3
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
No, I think it is a bit different. RPM is a different magic system, but there's room for lots of different magic systems even simultaneously. Techicnical Grappling is an expansion to the Basic Set and Martial Arts grappling rules that fixes a lot that seems broken. You can't use it and the older rules simultaneously.
And TG is a different grappling optional rules system. There's the default Basic system, the A New Take On Grappling system (Pyramid #3/34), the TG system, the MA system, . . . I'm not sure, is the Punch/Kick/Throw/Lock split of skills part of Pyramid, or just a homerule of one of the forumites (Douglas Cole?)

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
That would be silly, since Technical Grappling requires Martial Arts to work, and only covers grappling anyway.
It also is kinda incompatible with a big chunk of stuff in MA. Compare to the way MA and SE mostly build on the stuff of Basic Set.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I am a bit confused as to why you don't want to use it, since it does solve your problem.
Okay, I was trying not to turn this into a MA vs. TG sort of discussion, but since you're asking directly, I'll repeat the ones that I can name off the top of my head without re-reading it:
  • It adds tracking of another HP-like unit, essentially for several hit locations of each fighter involved. While I find it a slowing-down drawback, albeit a tolerable one, a large fraction of other roleplayers in my circle will absolutely refuse to participate a game with such an addition. Whether or not this is the same sort of refusal as is the cause behind Dvorak keyboards never catching on is hard to tell.
  • There's the constant lookups of how much a given combination of limbs and ST is equivalent to in effective ST, and how many CPs that inflicts on a success. Ditto the issue of referred control penalties and the like. And then there's the issue of how many CP to spend on a given action depending on your skill level and other factors (not to overspend, not to underspend, not to accidentally make breaking free too easy) - I do find some fun in betting games, but this sort of stuff can also easily become unfun. The less arithmeticophile players and GMs in my circles seem much more happy with the approach Social Engineering took to social events than with the way Technical Grappling expanded combat events; I can't say I disagree with their preferences, though I can't say I'm as dead-set.
  • The fact that TG occasionally makes implicit assumptions that are stated absolutely nowhere about how Basic Set traits should be rewritten. (E.g. nowhere does it say that stuff about Extra Arms is to be struck out of Basic Set, but apparently that's how it was intended to be. So now we have diminishing-returns of Extra Arms in TG, but the pricing unchanged.)
  • A related fact that TG mostly makes higher SM even worse than it was before TG. Sure, the bonus to hit with a grapple was dubious, but if it's replaced by a penalty to hit, then it better be compensated by something more serious than +15% ST and +1 DX after you hit. Because if you fail to grapple, all these later bonuses are useless, and SM on its own is bad as-is; sure, a superhuman giant with ST30 benefits from it; a ST10-12 human with Gigantism gets way more trouble for it that the amount of points gained from it.
  • The piledriver-vs-a-housecat issue. Sure, it can be fixed by extending the HT bonus for lower masses, but why is it that advanced rules come out of the box less generic-universal than basic rules?

Finally, a note; I'm not opposed to people discussing TG (and do not want my post to look as a topic-discouragement). I just don't want solutions/mechanics within the Basic+MA+FCCS context to be suppressed either.
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Last edited by vicky_molokh; 11-10-2014 at 05:28 PM. Reason: Spoiler revealed now that it's on-topic for the new thread
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Old 11-10-2014, 04:34 PM   #4
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I just don't want solutions/mechanics within the Basic+MA+FCCS context to be suppressed either.
The problems with the pre-Technical Grappling rules are a) unsolvable without new rules and b) solved by Technical Grappling. Now you are free to ignore those problems, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to just complain about the problems and also reject the solution to them.
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Old 11-10-2014, 04:51 PM   #5
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
The problems with the pre-Technical Grappling rules are a) unsolvable without new rules and b) solved by Technical Grappling. Now you are free to ignore those problems, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to just complain about the problems and also reject the solution to them.
Well, thing is, I'm seeking solution within the more conservative framework, not a whole new framework. Again, like people who like the solutions to problems handled the way Social Engineering did instead of erasing the Influence mechanic entirely. Or people who want revised Magic spells instead of using RPM. (Note: I actually like RPM, but my test audience seemed also somewhat unpleased by the fact that FP, ER and Energy are three separate things. Good thing Energy only gets tracked for a single purpose, and gets erased in the process is interrupted, more or less.)
(It also somewhat reminds me those computer thread people ask 'how to do XYZ in Win7' and get answers like 'delete Win7 and install GNU/Linux' or vice versa.)
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Old 11-10-2014, 05:10 PM   #6
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Well, thing is, I'm seeking solution within the more conservative framework, not a whole new framework.
There aren't any, though. The regular rules are "grappling is all-or-nothing" and "both holds and control are one-way". You can't "fix" those things without new rules.
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Or people who want revised Magic spells instead of using RPM. (Note: I actually like RPM, but my test audience seemed also somewhat unpleased by the fact that FP, ER and Energy are three separate things. Good thing Energy only gets tracked for a single purpose, and gets erased in the process is interrupted, more or less.)
That is different though. You can have multiple magic systems and magic isn't based on reality. You can't say "On UWD (Universal Wizarding Duels) when this guy casts a fireball..." but you can say "On UFC when this guy uses a triangle choke...".
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Old 11-10-2014, 05:16 PM   #7
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

Can you link me to a discussion of the piledriver-vs-a-housecat issue? It would a total derailment to discuss it here, but I'm not familiar.

EDIT: ah, thank you. Now that it's germane, is the problem that weak combatants can resist attacks with HT, making it unrealistically difficult to administer maneuvers like a piledriver on smaller enemies?

Last edited by McAllister; 11-10-2014 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 11-10-2014, 06:09 PM   #8
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Default Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Can you link me to a discussion of the piledriver-vs-a-housecat issue? It would a total derailment to discuss it here, but I'm not familiar.
I can't find the thread, but the point is:
Say you want to pick up a cat for a follow-up technique.
You roll a Quick Contest of your Trained HT against the cat's ST, DX or best grappling skill. Say the cat's DX is 11.
You roll at -4 if you're picking him up by a limb and not the torso. (I'm guessing neck counts as a limb, but not sure.)
You divide its weight (say, 10 lbs) by your BL (say 20 lbs), get , to which you add 3, and look at the Grappling Encumbrance Table. That's +5 to your trained HT. Say your HT is 10, so you roll against 15 for a torso lift, 11 for a limb lift. So by the limb, you have an about 50/50 chance of failing to lift a 5kg cat off the ground, even though you don't fail to hold your grip.

But either way, watch out for those 1/20 (by the torso) and 1/3 (by the limb) chances to fail your roll:
If you fail the roll vs. Trained HT, you have strained
yourself! On a regular failure, take thrust crushing damage
based on half your ST (not Trained ST!) to a random loca-
tion involved in the lift.
---
This looks even funnier when trying to lift a mouse (because your HT modifier doesn't get any better). If you have HT<10 and/or Unfit, it's even more risky.
Sure, it can be fixed by adding different modifiers for lower masses, but that means the issue is fixable, not that it isn't there. (I find it ironic that TG added such a non-genericness, even though there were rants about the non-genericness of HT-based resistance to chokes and arm locks for all these years.)
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Old 11-10-2014, 07:09 PM   #9
DouglasCole
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
And TG is a different grappling optional rules system. There's the default Basic system, the A New Take On Grappling system (Pyramid #3/34), the TG system, the MA system, . . . I'm not sure, is the Punch/Kick/Throw/Lock split of skills part of Pyramid, or just a homerule of one of the forumites (Douglas Cole?)
That one's parallel evolution, by several people. I liked punch/kick/grapple/joint lock as my foursome, because you can throw with a grapple or motivate with a lock.

Quote:
It also is kinda incompatible with a big chunk of stuff in MA. Compare to the way MA and SE mostly build on the stuff of Basic Set.
That seems a rather obvious results of "we're doing this Control Point thing, and have to integrate it with Basic and Martial Arts."

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Okay, I was trying not to turn this into a MA vs. TG sort of discussion
That's good, because Peter and Sean's book is totally freaking awesome and I won't entertain for a moment more time (other than writing this sentence) that the books are somehow opposed to each other.
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Old 11-10-2014, 07:11 PM   #10
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Default Re: Grappling - ruleset preferences and issues (Basic, Pyramid, MA, TG etc.)

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I can't find the thread, but the point is:
Say you want to pick up a cat for a follow-up technique.
You roll a Quick Contest of your Trained HT against the cat's ST, DX or best grappling skill. Say the cat's DX is 11.
No. You grab the frickin' cat, and say "on my next turn, I pick him up."
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