Standing up from kneeling and movement

Erling · 10-07-2014, 01:42 AM

What makes me surprised is a relation of movement and changing posture.

For instance, one can stand up from kneeling (Step) and attack at the same turn, because Attack maneuver allows Step.
But he can't (can he?) stand up from kneeling and move at the same turn. He can move at 1/3 rate or make a Change Posture maneuver instead.
It can be somewhat mitigated by stepping capability of consecutive maneuver: e.g. I can move while kneeling at 1/3 rate at turn #1, then stand up (Step) and Attack at turn #2.

But what if I want to start running from the kneeling posture (I want to make several consecutive Move maneuvers)? Should I always spend whole second in order to stand up?

Crouching is a different story, as one can uncrouch as a free action.

Is there any (basic or optional) rule which allows trading movement points for Step-like action (standing up from kneeling)? For example, if I have Basic Move 7, I'd like to trade 1 or 2 or even 3 yards of movement for standing up and then move forward as usual. That will let me move at least 4 yards at turn #1 and move up to my full Basic Move at turn #2 (11 yards in 2 seconds).

By-the-book options (if I don't miss something) let me Change Posture at turn #1 and Move at turn #2 (7 yards in 2 seconds) or move at 1/3 rate in both turns (4 yards in 2 seconds).

UPD: my google-fu has finally helped me in finding this thread: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=75660 Looks like trading regular movement for Step-like standing-up is a house rule... Looks like kneeling is an awful thing, as it requires entire second to stand up even if you have Basic Move 10 or more. Crouching is a much more viable option by the RAW.

The Benj · 10-07-2014, 05:30 AM

I tend to just make crouching and kneeling into a single posture, for simplicity.

Erling · 10-07-2014, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Benj

I tend to just make crouching and kneeling into a single posture, for simplicity.

Do you mean standing up from kneeling for a free action? If yes, I think it's a good solution.

I also tend to agree with folks from forementioned thread: using 1 movement point should be equivalent to using a Step, i.e. standing up from kneeling posture shall be worth 1 movement point.

All in all, if Step is (usually) a 1 yard movement which you can trade for kneeling/standing up from kneeling, why can't you trade 1 yard of regular movement for the same purpose? It's a house rule, of course, but it makes sense for me.

GodBeastX · 10-07-2014, 10:30 AM

Realistically speaking, from my own observations, it makes sense going from kneeling to standing requires one second. Standing during an attack using step isn't the same as standing to run. You have to imagine that the attack involved in a step and the step are happening at the same time. The running and the standing are not.

I recall the fitness challenge (Forget it's name) where one would run across a field, duck down to touch a line, run across the field again to touch a line, and run a full distance finally. The speed in which one moves while touching the line is greatly slowed.

I think the one place that is generally taking too much time, and probably erring on the side of caution because of it, is the ready maneuver to pick up on an object after a change posture to kneel. I feel that a crouching individual could pick up most small objects easily. So I generally rule in my games that if the object is less weight than Basic Lift, one can grab it from a crouch position off the ground with a ready. This allows the ready and the crouch to be done in the same action. This spares the full two seconds to put an object in your hand which is drastically unrealistic in my own opinion.

I can see bulkier objects, or two hand lifts and similar requiring the full two seconds, however.

RadSprack · 10-07-2014, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erling

Do you mean standing up from kneeling for a free action? If yes, I think it's a good solution.

I also tend to agree with folks from forementioned thread: using 1 movement point should be equivalent to using a Step, i.e. standing up from kneeling posture shall be worth 1 movement point.

All in all, if Step is (usually) a 1 yard movement which you can trade for kneeling/standing up from kneeling, why can't you trade 1 yard of regular movement for the same purpose? It's a house rule, of course, but it makes sense for me.

You also have to consider that you are essentially changing directions as well. You are making a ninety degree turn from rising vertically to moving horizontally, so, facing comes into terms here as well. The only difference is you are adding the z-axis to your movement.

Erling · 10-07-2014, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadSprack

You also have to consider that you are essentially changing directions as well. You are making a ninety degree turn from rising vertically to moving horizontally, so, facing comes into terms here as well. The only difference is you are adding the z-axis to your movement.

I'd say that's an overcomplication. Following this current of thought you can eventually reach the point where you'll start calculating facing degree while nockig the arrow: occasionally you may look down, then turn eyes up...

OK, let it be 2 movement points. It's still less than full number of movement point gained by character due to Move maneuver.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

I recall the fitness challenge (Forget it's name) where one would run across a field, duck down to touch a line, run across the field again to touch a line, and run a full distance finally. The speed in which one moves while touching the line is greatly slowed.

I'm not a military guy, but when I played airsoft (we played outdoors, used customized airsoftguns with muzzle velocity 150 meters/second) kneeling was a primary posture while not moving. And it was so widely used because, among other things, you can start running from kneeling posture. The foot of the kneeled leg bumped the ground so we could push off, and it was very easy to start moving forward and stand up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

You have to imagine that the attack involved in a step and the step are happening at the same time. The running and the standing are not.

I'm not sure about "at the same time". If you're poping up over a wall, you'll stand up first and shoot second.

Let's take a look assuming your Basic Move is 9.
With Attack maneuver you have step (1 yard of movement).
With Move and Attack maneuver you have 9 movement points (9 yards of movement).

Let's equate step to 3 movement points (in tactical combat it lets you turn by three hex-sides).

Then with Attack maneuver you can trade 3 mps for standing up.
But you can't trade same 3 mps for standing up with Move and Attack maneuver! And we shall consider that Move and Attack (as well as Move) is a manevuer which gives a character highest moving capability!

Another example: All-out Defense. All AoD options give you a step (exception: increased dodge). Increased dodge gives you more movement capability, not less. But you CAN'T trade movement points, stand up and dodge - you're ought to stay kneeling!

sir_pudding · 10-07-2014, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erling

]
And it was so widely used because, among other things, you can start running from kneeling posture. The foot of the kneeled leg bumped the ground so we could push off, and it was very easy to start moving forward and stand up.

I actually have a lot of trouble running from an actual kneeling posture with solid bone support (as opposed to a "tactical knee" which probably just a crouch in GURPS terms), but I'm clumsy. This seems trivial to house rule though:

You may make a DX-based Running-4 or Acrobatics-4 roll to go from kneeling to standing as part of a Move or Move and Attack; this costs two movement points.

GodBeastX · 10-07-2014, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erling

I'm not sure about "at the same time". If you're poping up over a wall, you'll stand up first and shoot second.

True, but you are preparing to shoot before you get over the wall, mentally and possibly physically. So part of the equation is already started before the actual trigger pull.

I find movement points and options are already difficult to drill into people's heads in my group. After months of playing, some people still don't get how retreat works. I try to stick more to the written rules for this reason not to confuse people.

Anaraxes · 10-07-2014, 04:54 PM

I imagine the "kneeling" posture means both knees on the ground.

This kind of "kneeling" is a crouch. (I'd say the picture is just mislabeled, given that no knee is touching the ground at all.) A crouch has the benefit of already having both feet under you, ready to stand up.

One knee down and one bent is probably the position people are thinking of when they imagine it's easy to start running from a "kneeling position". This posture would be a GURPS "crouch", particularly with an arm braced on the high knee to push yourself upwards.

As always, terms of art in the rules don't necessarily mean exactly what the common English does. So, be sure to clarify in your group exactly what poses you classify as "crouching" and "kneeling", so that if people casually say "I kneel down", you know exactly what GURPS posture they're talking about. I suspect combatants would rarely deliberately two-knee kneel in combat, but that's probably the posture you take if you get knocked down or stunned and "drop to your knees". Or perhaps you're grovelling, or just waiting for some forcefields to get out of the way.

The Benj · 10-07-2014, 05:18 PM

Or proposing. Which seldom happens in second-by-second action, but hey. :)

10-07-2014, 10:30 AM	#4
GodBeastX Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Behind You	Re: Standing up from kneeling and movement Realistically speaking, from my own observations, it makes sense going from kneeling to standing requires one second. Standing during an attack using step isn't the same as standing to run. You have to imagine that the attack involved in a step and the step are happening at the same time. The running and the standing are not. I recall the fitness challenge (Forget it's name) where one would run across a field, duck down to touch a line, run across the field again to touch a line, and run a full distance finally. The speed in which one moves while touching the line is greatly slowed. I think the one place that is generally taking too much time, and probably erring on the side of caution because of it, is the ready maneuver to pick up on an object after a change posture to kneel. I feel that a crouching individual could pick up most small objects easily. So I generally rule in my games that if the object is less weight than Basic Lift, one can grab it from a crouch position off the ground with a ready. This allows the ready and the crouch to be done in the same action. This spares the full two seconds to put an object in your hand which is drastically unrealistic in my own opinion. I can see bulkier objects, or two hand lifts and similar requiring the full two seconds, however.

10-07-2014, 04:54 PM	#9
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: Standing up from kneeling and movement I imagine the "kneeling" posture means both knees on the ground. This kind of "kneeling" is a crouch. (I'd say the picture is just mislabeled, given that no knee is touching the ground at all.) A crouch has the benefit of already having both feet under you, ready to stand up. One knee down and one bent is probably the position people are thinking of when they imagine it's easy to start running from a "kneeling position". This posture would be a GURPS "crouch", particularly with an arm braced on the high knee to push yourself upwards. As always, terms of art in the rules don't necessarily mean exactly what the common English does. So, be sure to clarify in your group exactly what poses you classify as "crouching" and "kneeling", so that if people casually say "I kneel down", you know exactly what GURPS posture they're talking about. I suspect combatants would rarely deliberately two-knee kneel in combat, but that's probably the posture you take if you get knocked down or stunned and "drop to your knees". Or perhaps you're grovelling, or just waiting for some forcefields to get out of the way.

10-07-2014, 05:18 PM	#10
The Benj MIB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Platform Zero, Sydney, Australia	Re: Standing up from kneeling and movement Or proposing. Which seldom happens in second-by-second action, but hey. :)

10-07-2014, 01:42 AM	#1
Erling Join Date: Sep 2014	Standing up from kneeling and movement What makes me surprised is a relation of movement and changing posture. For instance, one can stand up from kneeling (Step) and attack at the same turn, because Attack maneuver allows Step. But he can't (can he?) stand up from kneeling and move at the same turn. He can move at 1/3 rate or make a Change Posture maneuver instead. It can be somewhat mitigated by stepping capability of consecutive maneuver: e.g. I can move while kneeling at 1/3 rate at turn #1, then stand up (Step) and Attack at turn #2. But what if I want to start running from the kneeling posture (I want to make several consecutive Move maneuvers)? Should I always spend whole second in order to stand up? Crouching is a different story, as one can uncrouch as a free action. Is there any (basic or optional) rule which allows trading movement points for Step-like action (standing up from kneeling)? For example, if I have Basic Move 7, I'd like to trade 1 or 2 or even 3 yards of movement for standing up and then move forward as usual. That will let me move at least 4 yards at turn #1 and move up to my full Basic Move at turn #2 (11 yards in 2 seconds). By-the-book options (if I don't miss something) let me Change Posture at turn #1 and Move at turn #2 (7 yards in 2 seconds) or move at 1/3 rate in both turns (4 yards in 2 seconds). UPD: my google-fu has finally helped me in finding this thread: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=75660 Looks like trading regular movement for Step-like standing-up is a house rule... Looks like kneeling is an awful thing, as it requires entire second to stand up even if you have Basic Move 10 or more. Crouching is a much more viable option by the RAW. Last edited by Erling; 10-07-2014 at 02:25 AM.

10-07-2014, 05:30 AM	#2
The Benj MIB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Platform Zero, Sydney, Australia	Re: Standing up from kneeling and movement I tend to just make crouching and kneeling into a single posture, for simplicity.