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Old 02-06-2006, 06:57 AM   #1
NineDaysDead
 
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Default [Martial Arts] Things I would like to see

Ritualised combat
A paragraph or 2 on using the art/sport skills for ritualised lethal combat; think Legend of the Five Rings iaijutsu rules. You can’t always do what’s best because it’s against The Rules.

Supers and martial arts:
E.g. when does it become impossible to parry an attack?

A Super-normal martial artist is being hit with an untrained punch, unfortunately for him the punch is from Tank boy. Tank boy’s fist is moving at 7 times the speed of sound with enough force to shatter steel, how can Super-normal hope to get his arm there fast enough? And if he does, shouldn’t that just mean he loses his arm before getting hit?

Actually this would have wider uses than just supers: Can my martial artist parry that rock somebody threw at him? What if it’s a big rock? What if it’s a boulder that’s twice the size he is? What if it’s the size of a small cannon ball? What if it’s the size of a small cannon ball and going really fast? What if it is a small cannon ball? A large cannon ball?

At some point an attack is too fast to parry, what is that point? Shouldn’t there be penalties before you reach that point.

At some point an attack is too strong to parry, what is that point? Shouldn’t there be penalties before you reach that point.

Dodging bullets:
How many levels of Speed, Enhanced Time Sense and Altered time rate do I need to dodge bullets like Neo?

The heart hit location:
Why? What make it different from the vitals? Well it has to be the heart you stake for a vampire, the heart you cut out from an angel (The Prophecy) etc. There’s a large body of legend around the heart. And most games are built more on fantasy than fact. It should probably have a higher penalty to hit for one thing and maybe modified bleeding rules.
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Old 02-06-2006, 07:40 AM   #2
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Things I would like to see

Quote:
Originally Posted by NineDaysDead
Supers and martial arts:
E.g. when does it become impossible to parry an attack?

A Super-normal martial artist is being hit with an untrained punch, unfortunately for him the punch is from Tank boy. Tank boy’s fist is moving at 7 times the speed of sound with enough force to shatter steel, how can Super-normal hope to get his arm there fast enough? And if he does, shouldn’t that just mean he loses his arm before getting hit?
Under the rules, damage only comes into it after the attack has hit. Parry does not mean "interpose my arm between the attack and me", it's rather "stepping aside while gently guiding the attack away".
If you take attack damage (that is, speed) into account for melee purposes, you have to rewrite the combat system, I think.
So, even in a successful parry, the attack doesn't hit the arm, it hits air.

Quote:
Actually this would have wider uses than just supers: Can my martial artist parry that rock somebody threw at him? What if it’s a big rock? What if it’s a boulder that’s twice the size he is? What if it’s the size of a small cannon ball? What if it’s the size of a small cannon ball and going really fast? What if it is a small cannon ball? A large cannon ball?

At some point an attack is too fast to parry, what is that point? Shouldn’t there be penalties before you reach that point.
I believe rules for parrying thrown weapons are covered in the Basic Set. IIRC, the penalty grows with the speed of the missile you're facing. The point when parry becomes impossible is rather arbitrary (something like "arrows yes, bullets no" for TBM, "thrown weapons yes, arrows no" for mundanes). It's hardly possible to set an exact point for this: should you want to do this, you'd have to decide all the velocities of the different attacks/projectiles.

Quote:
At some point an attack is too strong to parry, what is that point? Shouldn’t there be penalties before you reach that point.
See above. Damage does not concern defensibility.

Quote:
Dodging bullets:
How many levels of Speed, Enhanced Time Sense and Altered time rate do I need to dodge bullets like Neo?
I'm not sure I understand you. You can already dodge bullets under the rules - that's what's ticking some people off about the current dodge rules. (btw, ETS doesn't come in levels, to the best of my knowledge.)
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Old 02-06-2006, 08:02 AM   #3
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Things I would like to see

Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg
Under the rules, damage only comes into it after the attack has hit. Parry does not mean "interpose my arm between the attack and me", it's rather "stepping aside while gently guiding the attack away".
How would you “gently guide the attack away" when you’re being hit with a car? I don’t think a fly could guide my fist away, how could someone with a strength of 20 “gently guide the attack away" when they’re being punched by someone with a Strength of 300. If they’re only stepping away, that’s a dodge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg
I believe rules for parrying thrown weapons are covered in the Basic Set. IIRC, the penalty grows with the speed of the missile you're facing. The point when parry becomes impossible is rather arbitrary (something like "arrows yes, bullets no" for TBM, "thrown weapons yes, arrows no" for mundanes).
What’s the difference between a bullet and a thrown weapon that’s travelling as fast or faster?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg
It's hardly possible to set an exact point for this:
An exact point, no, better guidelines, yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg
(btw, ETS doesn't come in levels, to the best of my knowledge.)
Yeah but the sentence was easier to write that way.
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Old 02-06-2006, 08:15 AM   #4
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Things I would like to see

Quote:
Originally Posted by NineDaysDead
How would you “gently guide the attack away" when you’re being hit with a car? I don’t think a fly could guide my fist away, how could someone with a strength of 20 “gently guide the attack away" when they’re being punched by someone with a Strength of 300. If they’re only stepping away, that’s a dodge.
You can't parry a car (except if you're Mechatron and as high as a building...)
A fly can't parry your fist mostly because of the size difference (and the lack of trainig on the part of the fly), I'd say. The flys "arms" are too short to guide your fist away. Though flys are pretty good at dodging.
ST20 guy can, imo, parry ST300 guy (assuming both are roughly humanoid). MA is all about using the enemies force against him, right?

Quote:
What’s the difference between a bullet and a thrown weapon that’s travelling as fast or faster?
In this context, there is no functional difference. If a thrown knife was as fast as a bullet, I wouldn't allow parry - but that's hard to quantify, right? Isn't the approximation "bullet-speed" vs. "arrow-speed" vs "thrown weapon speed" sufficient in most cases? (Now, I'm talking here without checking the books... I have no idea how extensively the rules cover this)

Quote:
An exact point, no, better guidelines, yes.
Well, ymmv. Now that you have posted your request, tptb will read it and take it in consideration, I guess.

Quote:
Yeah but the sentence was easier to write that way.
Just nitpicking :)
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Old 02-06-2006, 08:54 AM   #5
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Things I would like to see

Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg
I'm not sure I understand you. You can already dodge bullets under the rules - that's what's ticking some people off about the current dodge rules.
For some reason I was under the impression Martial Arts would clarify the issue, if that's not the case...
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Old 02-06-2006, 09:14 AM   #6
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Things I would like to see

Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg
You can't parry a car (except if you're Mechatron and as high as a building...)
Where does it say an ordinary human can’t parry a car? What is the largest thing an ordinary human can parry and why? Does it make a difference how strong you are? What if you’re really strong like Superman? Do you need to have a High SM then? What if you’re braced against impact or can fly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg
A fly can't parry your fist mostly because of the size difference (and the lack of trainig on the part of the fly), I'd say. The flys "arms" are too short to guide your fist away.
And is this point of view supported anywhere? How long do arms need to be? Can a ST15, 150point character parry when Godzilla kicks him? Why not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg
Though flys are pretty good at dodging.
We’re discussing parrying, remember?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg
ST20 guy can, imo, parry ST300 guy (assuming both are roughly humanoid). MA is all about using the enemies force against him, right?
I wouldn’t say that. I’d say that MA is all about using knowledge of human weak points and things like leverage to increase your effective strength by knocking your opponents arm in just the right way.

Within the normal human range this works very well indeed, is it enough to bridge a 280 strength gap? I don’t think so. Hell, I wonder how well the best martial artists would do against even a gorilla or bear, let alone anything like an elephant.
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Old 02-06-2006, 09:27 AM   #7
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Things I would like to see

Here is my wishlist/checklist:
  1. 160 pages from the old GURPS Martial Arts updated to 4th edition
  2. 22 pages of combat galore from GURPS Swashbucklers (maneuvers, styles, weight, speed, range...)
  3. 14 pages of other combat systems from GURPS Compendium II (actually less pages, excluding guns)
  4. 3 pages of underwater combat from GURPS Atlantis
  5. 1 page of detailed and expanded bleeding rules
  6. 1 page of detailed and expanded infection rules
  7. 1 page of detailed weapon size and scale rules
  8. 1 or more pages of expanded (generic) mounted combat rules
  9. 1 page of detailed and expanded weapons customization rules from GURPS Low Tech
  10. 1 page of detailed and expanded armors customization rules from GURPS Low Tech
  11. 1 page of detailed and expanded bow/xbow/arrows rules from GURPS Low Tech
  12. some more rules from GURPS Compendium II that didn't make into the Basic Set [§]
  13. official rules for armors damage (finally!)
  14. Fairbairn Close Combat Training from GURPS WWII: Hand of Steel.
  15. notes about Mixed Martial Arts competitions (UFC, Pride)
  16. expanded rules for weapons and poisons

Pyramid articles to be considered (for ideas and mechanics):
  • Pyramid article about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
  • Common Misapprehensions in Swordplay by Hugh Hancock
  • Medieval and Fantasy Missile Weapons by Dan Howard
  • Swashbuckling in Sidebars by Bryan Maloney
  • The Western Way of War by Volker Bach
  • European Martial Arts Before the Rapier by Volker Bach
  • Waging the Battle Royal, Roleplaying Low-Tech Battles by Volker Bach
  • Honor Most Criminal, Swordplay in Elizabethan England by Bryan John Maloney
  • Eight Million Bayonets, Bayonet Fencing in GURPS WW2 by Marc Goldstein
  • Now That's a Knife! Modern Blades in GURPS by Jeff Fournier

[§] Advanced shields and healing rules, weapons and armors materials, specific and partial injuries . . .
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Old 02-06-2006, 10:14 AM   #8
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Things I would like to see

Quote:
Originally Posted by NineDaysDead
Supers and martial arts:
E.g. when does it become impossible to parry an attack?

A Super-normal martial artist is being hit with an untrained punch, unfortunately for him the punch is from Tank boy. Tank boy’s fist is moving at 7 times the speed of sound with enough force to shatter steel, how can Super-normal hope to get his arm there fast enough? And if he does, shouldn’t that just mean he loses his arm before getting hit?

Actually this would have wider uses than just supers: Can my martial artist parry that rock somebody threw at him? What if it’s a big rock? What if it’s a boulder that’s twice the size he is? What if it’s the size of a small cannon ball? What if it’s the size of a small cannon ball and going really fast? What if it is a small cannon ball? A large cannon ball?

At some point an attack is too fast to parry, what is that point? Shouldn’t there be penalties before you reach that point.

At some point an attack is too strong to parry, what is that point? Shouldn’t there be penalties before you reach that point.

Dodging bullets:
How many levels of Speed, Enhanced Time Sense and Altered time rate do I need to dodge bullets like Neo?
I realy like that questions and would like to get offical explanations and rules for this situations :)
To agree to something here :P
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Old 02-06-2006, 10:31 AM   #9
zorg
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Things I would like to see

Quote:
Originally Posted by NineDaysDead
Where does it say an ordinary human can’t parry a car? What is the largest thing an ordinary human can parry and why? Does it make a difference how strong you are? What if you’re really strong like Superman? Do you need to have a High SM then? What if you’re braced against impact or can fly?
To clarify: This is stated nowhere in the rules. I made it up, based on what I think is reasonable. ymmv, of course - I just tried to point out solutions to your questions. If you think human beings should be able to parry cars, then play it that way.

Quote:
And is this point of view supported anywhere?
No.

Quote:
Can a ST15, 150point character parry when Godzilla kicks him? Why not?
Do you seriously want a rule which says "No one can parry an attack from a creature which a zillion times his mass, ST and size"? Is this necessary?

Quote:
We’re discussing parrying, remember?
I tried to inject some light humor into this discussion. After all, we're discussion the parry score of a fly here... Evidently I failed.
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Old 02-06-2006, 10:32 AM   #10
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Things I would like to see

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
Pyramid articles to be considered (for ideas and mechanics):
  • Pyramid article about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
  • Common Misapprehensions in Swordplay by Hugh Hancock
  • Medieval and Fantasy Missile Weapons by Dan Howard
  • Swashbuckling in Sidebars by Bryan Maloney
  • The Western Way of War by Volker Bach
  • European Martial Arts Before the Rapier by Volker Bach
  • Waging the Battle Royal, Roleplaying Low-Tech Battles by Volker Bach
  • Honor Most Criminal, Swordplay in Elizabethan England by Bryan John Maloney
  • Eight Million Bayonets, Bayonet Fencing in GURPS WW2 by Marc Goldstein
  • Now That's a Knife! Modern Blades in GURPS by Jeff Fournier

[§] Advanced shields and healing rules, weapons and armors materials, specific and partial injuries . . .
Let me add that Pyramid article on Elven Martial Arts.
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