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Old 09-10-2014, 06:57 PM   #21
Kraydak
 
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Which "reverse engineering an experimental engine based only the description" shouldn't be. That's not an easy task. It's not an ordinary job task at all!
"Reverse engineer an experimental thingy" is an ordinary everyday job task for a large
number of engineers and scientists.
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Old 09-10-2014, 07:05 PM   #22
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

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Originally Posted by korbeau View Post
I understand your point about technology who could win wars and save nations from economics crash but (yea sorry, I edit my post after finding page references) it's not +4 for an "easy task" but for nonadventuring situation.

Am i wrong? If so, I know some players who would not like me next saturday...
The modifier is for "Easy" tasks. See Task Difficulty Modifiers, p. B354 which gives generic modifiers from Impossible -10 to Automatic +10. How to Be a GURPS GM is just referencing that.

Reverse engineering a new type of engine of a competitor or enemy based only on a description is an adventuring task for an inventor! It's as important for an inventor as a fight is for a swordsman.
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Old 09-10-2014, 07:10 PM   #23
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
The modifier is for "Easy" tasks. See Task Difficulty Modifiers, p. B354 which gives generic modifiers from Impossible -10 to Automatic +10. How to Be a GURPS GM is just referencing that.
What about Basic p. 171? They don't mention "for easy task"..

I'm confused :(
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Old 09-10-2014, 07:11 PM   #24
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

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Originally Posted by Kraydak View Post
"Reverse engineer an experimental thingy" is an ordinary everyday job task for a large
number of engineers and scientists.
No, I don't think so. Who reverse engineers some different new thing every day? The ordinary job part is doing a bunch of tasks that don't even get separate rolls in GURPS, just subsumed into the Concept and Prototype rolls and as monthly Job rolls. "Machining a part" or "testing the carbon content of this steel" are the easy tasks.

You can't just say "My character's job is 'world-class genius' so he gets +10 to all rolls for invention, because that stuff is automatic for him" anymore than you can just say "My character's job is 'best fighter in the world' so he gets +10 on all rolls in combat because defeating lesser foes is automatic for him".

Last edited by sir_pudding; 09-10-2014 at 10:44 PM.
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Old 09-10-2014, 07:15 PM   #25
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

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Originally Posted by korbeau View Post
What about Basic p. 171? They don't mention "for easy task"..

I'm confused :(
That's the same bonus. It says "In nonadventuring situations when you have lots of time to prepare and face minimal risk" and "Ordinary people almost always receive this bonus at mundane tasks, even if they are working from default skill!".

Inventing doesn't have minimal risk. It can waste staggeringly large amounts of money and even result in lethal accidents! It's also not a "mundane" task. Inventing something new is an extraordinary event, not an everyday activity.
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Old 09-10-2014, 07:23 PM   #26
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

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Originally Posted by How to be a Gurps GM p. 13
The rules were written under the assumption that most PCs would be getting +1 or +2 because the players would be sure to have decent equipment for their characters’ most important skills, and generally +1 to +5 more for taking extra time in any situation where the GM wasn’t saying, “Hurry! The guards are coming!”
That’s not saying for easy task but for taking time, being into a nonadventuring situation (no Hurry about the guards)… and being “best fighter”, he use is skill in a fighting situation.

What I read is it’s supposed to give bonus to almost important skills. Maybe I’m wrong, English’s not my native language after all
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Old 09-10-2014, 07:31 PM   #27
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Building a motor of a commercially available type might be an ordinary job task for a mechanic and assistants. Inventing a prototype motor of an unknown type, or as in your case reverse engineering a prototype based only on a description, isn't an ordinary job task. This is the sort of heroic effort that wins wars, makes fortunes, and changes the destiny of nations.
Exactly.

Europe spent 200 years reverse engineering Porcelain, when they had both the kaolin clay and Porcelain dishware! A war almost started when Alchemists in Saxony (a German state) figured it out and kept the trade secret (an founded a factory and started making it). Of course they only kept the secret for two years before a Jesuit priest who'd been to China and learned the process published letters all over Europe detailing it.
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Old 09-10-2014, 07:40 PM   #28
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

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Originally Posted by korbeau View Post
That’s not saying for easy task but for taking time,
Taking extra time is a different modifier, see Time Spent p. B346. Which you rejected up-thread.
Quote:
being into a nonadventuring situation (no Hurry about the guards)…
"Reverse engineer the Mark IV, and don't waste any money or time (or blow yourself up)!" is the engineer's version of "Hurry, the guards are coming!".
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What I read is it’s supposed to give bonus to almost important skills. Maybe I’m wrong, English’s not my native language after all
Most rolls in an adventure should be at +0.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B354
0 – Average. Most adventuring tasks, and the majority of skill use under stress. Example: A Driving roll in a car chase.
Here's the whole original quote:
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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
A bigger problem is that people seem to ignore the many generous bonuses given under individual skills for uses that are likely to be most uses by PCs. I mean things like "+3 for buying drinks or other entertainment for your fellow carousers," "+5 if you are being supervised or assisted by someone with skill 15 or better," "Up to +5 to build a gadget if you can give the GM a good description of what you want it to do," "+3 if the light is dim; +3 if you have a confederate to distract attention," and, "+1 to +4 for displays of strength, bloodthirstiness, or supernatural powers." It's hard to emphasize these in the general rules, as they're skill-specific and the right place for them is in Chapter 4 under individual skills. Even so, they are all in brightly colored paragraphs that open with italic lead-ins and that are set off on both sides by whitespace:
Modifiers: A whole block of vividly colored text that I find hard to ignore, despite being colorblind, with a visible gap above and below it to indicate a mode shift.
Also, a lot of players seem hell-bent on doing things the hard way. The rules were written under the assumption that most PCs would be getting +1 or +2 because the players would be sure to have decent equipment for their characters' most important skills (p. B345), and generally +1 to +5 more for taking extra time (p. B346) in any situation where the GM wasn't saying, "Hurry! The guards are coming!" When people compare real-life success rates to those in the game, they regularly overlook these bonuses, which get the honor of their own Large Headings to make them obvious (unlike those in skill descriptions).

When I hear somebody complain that they thought 12 was good enough but it bit them on the butt, I always ask them whether they considered the above modifiers. Generally, they didn't.
So he's talking about specifically trying to get bonuses to do adventuring tasks, not claiming that hard things are actually easy for your character so you should get a big generic TDM for it.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:41 PM   #29
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The cost of facilities seems weird. Can you imagine $50,000 worth of facilities built when someone succeeded at a Concept Roll and wanted to make a prototype of stirrups?
Well neither blacksmith shops or stables full of horses are exactly cheap. A generous GM might let you borrow either or both for a couple days from somebody that already has one, but if you have to build your own first it's not totally ridiculous.
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:37 PM   #30
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

Stirrups weren't unique physical inventions so much, but more unique uses for lengths of leather. Technique/use inventions should be much cheaper than gadget.
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