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Old 09-10-2014, 01:07 PM   #11
johndallman
 
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by korbeau View Post
For the expense, I understand you need a lab of at least 250 000$ for building a Complexe device + the retail price of it, where it should be less than 1 million.

If the motor cost 100 000$ (yea, it's a complexe motor), the initial cost should be 350 000$ and if you fail, it cost you 100 000$ each time for making the prototype.
I haven't worked the numbers, but those figures are pretty plausible for a basic lab for TL8 automobile engine development.

The big manufacturers spend a fair bit more, but (a) they suffer from the problems of large corporations and (b) they have a lot of competition and are willing to spend money in the hope of doing a better job (in GURPS terms, buying better-quality facilities to get bonuses to their rolls).
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Old 09-10-2014, 01:34 PM   #12
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

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Originally Posted by Kraydak View Post
On the other hand, the late 19th/early 20th century development of internal-combustion engines was not the result of massive research efforts by huge corporations.
No, just thousands of year of people tinkering around with external combustion engines, and taking the middle engine (Stirling's External Combustion Engine) and adapting it.


So, yeah, no massive amounts of research applied here... ;)
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Old 09-10-2014, 01:46 PM   #13
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

The cost of facilities seems weird. Can you imagine $50,000 worth of facilities built when someone succeeded at a Concept Roll and wanted to make a prototype of stirrups? A stone-head spear? Fire? Leather armour? Wheel? Waterskins?
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Old 09-10-2014, 03:56 PM   #14
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
The cost of facilities seems weird. Can you imagine $50,000 worth of facilities built when someone succeeded at a Concept Roll and wanted to make a prototype of stirrups? A stone-head spear? Fire? Leather armour? Wheel? Waterskins?
It seems probable to me that the GURPS invention rules don't cover the entirety of the way things are invented / discovered, only the method used by dedicated tinkerers intentionally developing a specific device. Contraptions or procedures discovered accidentally and perfected over the course of generations don't have specific rules governing them. This could cover most of human invention before the scientific method, at least with respect to big ideas rather than iterative improvements.
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Old 09-10-2014, 04:06 PM   #15
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
The cost of facilities seems weird. Can you imagine $50,000 worth of facilities built when someone succeeded at a Concept Roll and wanted to make a prototype of stirrups? A stone-head spear? Fire? Leather armour? Wheel? Waterskins?
You do know that these things were invented over thousands of years, right?
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Old 09-10-2014, 04:10 PM   #16
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

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You do know that these things were invented over thousands of years, right?
No they weren't, unless you postulate an Unaging inventor.
Or maybe it would be just as fair to say that cellphone has been invented over thousands of years, right?

Stirrups and wheel actually seem like poster childer of the 'whack-on-a-head' inventions which are Simple by RAW.
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Old 09-10-2014, 04:18 PM   #17
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

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Originally Posted by korbeau View Post
Not being in an "adventure context" (no zombies run after him) he can have a +4 for his skill.
Despite what people seem to think, there's actually no such modifier.

What you are probably thinking of is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by B345
+4 or +5 Easy. Most mundane tasks,
including rolls made by ordinary
people at day-to-day jobs. Example:
A Driving roll to commute to work
in a small town.
Which "reverse engineering an experimental engine based only the description" shouldn't be. That's not an easy task. It's not an ordinary job task at all!
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Old 09-10-2014, 07:34 PM   #18
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Despite what people seem to think, there's actually no such modifier.
What you are probably thinking of is [Basic p. 345]
No i'm more thinking about Basic p. 171 and How to be a Gurps GM p. 13

Quote:
Originally Posted by How to be a Gurps GM p. 13
When considering skill-level limits, be aware that someone’s skill level measures his odds of success “under adventuring conditions,” as noted on p. B171. Routine skill use, outside the pressures of adventuring, will always enjoy a +4 or more, in addition to possible bonuses for equipment (p. B345)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basic p. 171
In nonadventuring situations when you have lots of time to prepare and face minimal risk, the GM may give you +4 or more to skill.
We can assume that the inventor who build the motor, it's his job (the mechanics skill... not "invention"). You think the +4 don't apply in this case?
If not, only a skill at 18 would be able to build a Complexe device, which is nearly impossible to obtain in a realistic campaign :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by How to be a Gurps GM p. 12
[skill at...] 18-19: Best of a generation (e.g., the world’s best sniper).

Last edited by korbeau; 09-10-2014 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 09-10-2014, 07:42 PM   #19
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

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Originally Posted by korbeau View Post
???? truly ??? O.O
Yes. That's not a "no zombies present" modifier. It's the modifier for an easy task. Inventing shouldn't probably ever be easy or routine.

Quote:
We can assume that the inventor who build the motor, it's his job (so it is for his assistants). You think the +4 don't apply in this case?
Building a motor of a commercially available type might be an ordinary job task for a mechanic and assistants. Inventing a prototype motor of an unknown type, or as in your case reverse engineering a prototype based only on a description, isn't an ordinary job task. This is the sort of heroic effort that wins wars, makes fortunes, and changes the destiny of nations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by korbeau View Post
If not, only a skill at 18 would be able to build a Complexe device, which is nearly impossible to obtain in a realistic campaign :(
No, a skill 18 (or so) is what you want to invent a new type of Complex device, not build one that's commonly available. Skill-18 also isn't "impossible to obtain". It's just difficult. If say a Micheal Farraday isn't the "best in the world" then who is?

Last edited by sir_pudding; 09-10-2014 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 09-10-2014, 07:49 PM   #20
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Default Re: Realistic Invention Rule

I understand your point about technology who could win wars and save nations from economics crash but (yea sorry, I edit my post after finding page references) it's not +4 for an "easy task" but for nonadventuring situation.

Am i wrong? If so, I know some players who would not like me next saturday...
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