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Old 09-01-2014, 01:21 PM   #1
Winged
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Default Judo and falling damage.

Hi all, first let me start out by saying I do not possess the gurps product known as Technical Grappling, so if my question is addressed there, it is not necessarily helpful to me at this time.

In the entry for the skill judo it says that if a takedown attempt is successful the target falls into a couple of hexes nearby. Since it is a fall it seems reasonable that the falling guy should take falling damage (and assuming they are normal height their center of gravity would have them falling about a yard).

Given the above do you think that the damage is justified and happens in addition to the health roll against stun, or would that be double jeopardy and the word "fall" in judo was just a case of a word in the rules having more than one use?

Additionally, if the falling damage is a fair and legitimate in the case of a judo throw should an acrobatics roll negate it, or would the circumstances of a throw not permit the "free to move" condition for that to be the case? In real life break falls do exist and are practiced to distribute force in the event of a throw, but at the same time it seems that the judo practitioner who was grappling prior to the throw and will continue after the throw should have some level of control over this.
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Old 09-01-2014, 01:29 PM   #2
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Default Re: Judo and falling damage.

I believe the book you want to be looking in is Martial Arts, not Technical Grappling.

However, I only have it in print, so I can't look for references right now. I think there's options to judo throw for damage and not for damage.

EDIT: The Basic Set rules for a Judo throw make no reference at all to damage. While you could try to wedge in the falling damage rules, having written the Judo rules that way with the intent for people to plug in falling damage despite it not being mentioned would have been horribly inept. So I feel pretty safe in saying that no damage is intended. The stunning is a pretty serious consequence though.
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Old 09-01-2014, 01:36 PM   #3
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Judo and falling damage.

GURPS Martial Arts p. 75 allows you to throw someone for up to thrust-1 crushing damage. Typical targets are the head or limbs.
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Old 09-01-2014, 01:36 PM   #4
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Default Re: Judo and falling damage.

Yup, what you're looking for is in Martial Arts. Specifically, Judo Throw (pg 75) describes how to inflict damage with a throw, which the Breakfall technique (pg 68) can mitigate.
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Old 09-01-2014, 01:40 PM   #5
WingedKagouti
 
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Default Re: Judo and falling damage.

And page 118 & 119 (in MA) have additional rules for throwing someone for damage from a Lock (Arm/Hand/whatever).
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Old 09-01-2014, 02:09 PM   #6
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Judo and falling damage.

You may also get something out of a blog post I did on Damaging Takedowns.

Damaging takedowns are not covered in TG at all. Judo Throws are, but the core of it isn't that much different than basic.
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Old 09-01-2014, 03:14 PM   #7
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Default Re: Judo and falling damage.

I would increase damageif conditions applied that would increase damage though. Ugh gravity is one example
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Old 09-01-2014, 03:58 PM   #8
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Default Re: Judo and falling damage.

Not trying to derail this thread or anything, but as someone who's tossed a lot of people around (I'm a ex-bouncer and worked as a personal security consultant/personal assets protection for a long time) the amount they give you is generous. You're doing as much damage to your target as a well-placed punch, possibly stunning them, and tossing someone up to three feet away. That's...a lot. I'm not saying you should change it because it is a GOOD gameable distinction, but if you want a more realistic version of it, I'd have it do thrust-4 crushing damage or thrust-2 at -1 per die, whichever is worse (just like Aggressive Parry). Throwing someone around is for two general reasons: because your target has you at a disadvantage (you're hurt, they're armed, they've got a size advantage, you're protecting someone, etc.) or you want to hurt them. The first is covered by regular Judo Throw. You roll versus your skill and toss them away and hope them being prone means you can get an advantage or run like hell. Lack of mobility can end a fight (something often overlooked in RPGs). The second is covered by the rules in Martial Arts, but when you're intentionally hurting someone by throwing them, you're not trying to use your own strength or even gravity against them (it helps; I mean I'm a strong fella and I rarely did as much damage as punching someone when I tossed them aiming to hurt them). Instead, you're trying to damage soft targets (the stomach, the head, or the face - especially the checks which hurt like a sonuvabitch, lots of nerve endings there) or hard targets (the spine/back, limbs, whatever) by hitting what my old boss called a "point of impact." The point of impact could be the ground/floor/whatever your standing on, but most often it was things that were part of the environment (table edges, stools, wall corners, and similar) or part of the target (e.g., you're throwing them in such a way as to catch a limb under them so their weight is placed on said limb). You can cause a ton of damage by getting a target to fall a certain way. The trick is to make them go down without catching themselves. You ever trip and grab whatevers around you to steady yourself or put your hands out palm first? It spreads the impact. By controlling the point of impact you can control how they go down. I've broken a man's ulna and radius at the same time by throwing him the right way at a picnic table (came right out of his elbow). Most of the time though people are going to be able to catch themselves and minimize the damage. As a bouncer tossing someone out of your joint without hurting them is something you learn. Hell, not hurting people permanently was one of the things I had to learn (and most of the other guys I worked with as well) and it wasn't easy. Learning how to apply what amount of force and where has to be one of the most difficult and time-consuming things I ever learned in my life (so far). Of course, I've never studied any martial arts or been formally taught. I've got what you call a natural aptitude for violence, and these are merely my musings on the subject. Someone like Peter or Doug might have more insight into it than I.
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Old 09-01-2014, 05:15 PM   #9
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Default Re: Judo and falling damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
...if you want a more realistic version of it, I'd have it do thrust-4 crushing damage or thrust-2 at -1 per die, whichever is worse (just like Aggressive Parry).
Quote:
You can cause a ton of damage by getting a target to fall a certain way.
I'm not sure I understand this. You start by saying that the damage GURPS gives is overly generous, then describe how incredibly damaging a throw can be. Is there some additional damage bonus you're applying for "proper" throws? (for example, throwing them so they hit the edge of a picnic table for +1 or +2 damage)
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Old 09-01-2014, 05:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: Judo and falling damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
I'm not sure I understand this. You start by saying that the damage GURPS gives is overly generous, then describe how incredibly damaging a throw can be. Is there some additional damage bonus you're applying for "proper" throws? (for example, throwing them so they hit the edge of a picnic table for +1 or +2 damage)
I suspect it's related to hit location and a high wound multiplier.
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