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Old 08-21-2014, 08:49 AM   #1
Gigermann
 
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Default [Basic] Trained by a Non-Combat Master

Our GM, inspired by How to be a GURPS GM, decided to cap skills at 18, requiring Trained by a Master to exceed that limit—that's all well and good. But what about a wizard? Or a psychologist? TbaM has no effect for non-melée skills other than as a really-expensive Unusual Background/Rule Exemption.

How would you do it?
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:54 AM   #2
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: [Basic] Trained by a Non-Combat Master

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Originally Posted by Gigermann View Post
Our GM, inspired by How to be a GURPS GM, decided to cap skills at 18, requiring Trained by a Master to exceed that limit—that's all well and good. But what about a wizard? Or a psychologist? TbaM has no effect for non-melée skills other than as a really-expensive Unusual Background/Rule Exemption.

How would you do it?
Any such cap needs an UB-type rule to allow the exceeding of it.

TBaM applies to a lot of combat skills, but has a lot of additional effects too, so as long as it's solely about being allowed to exceed the skill cap, I'd say something like Trained by a Master Thief or Master Wizard would be 10 CP or at the most 15.

But to honest, I think it's a somewhat silly rule to have. One way to "sweeten the deal" could be to give extra benefits for TbaMT or TbaMZ, but often if trying to do that you bump into the granularity of the system.
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:30 AM   #3
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Default Re: [Basic] Trained by a Non-Combat Master

The main benefit of TBaM is reduced penalties for Rapid Strike and multiple parries. The access to esoteric skills is basically a minor unusual background (and plenty of them make sense for non-combat TBaM anyway: Wizards could learn Mental Strength and Hypnotic Hands, Theives could learn Lizard Climb, Flying Leap, and Invisibility Art, etc...).

I guess the simplest solution would be to allow the equivalent of Rapid Strike for Non-Combat tasks.

Once you do that, then TBaM makes sense for high IQ characters who can, for instance, perform two Concentrate maneuvers at -3 instead of -6.

I guess there are already rules in place for performing non-combat tasks quicker, it makes sense that Non-Combat versions of TBaM would halve the penalties for those tasks.
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:37 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Basic] Trained by a Non-Combat Master

Yeah, what Aesir said. TBaM mitigates a number of penalties, and WM does all that while enhancing the core use of the skill, damage, but applies to a variable scope of applications ranging from one weapon to all of them. If Trained by a Master Foo gives a bonus to all uses of the core skill in addition to reducing certain penalties (such as the rush penalty), base it on the full version of Weapon Master, and reduce the cost if the benefits aren't as powerful; if it benefits some but not all of the core uses, use the WM guidelines to reduce cost. If it only mitigates penalties and allows the user to exceed the skill cap, base it on TBaM and tweak from there.
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:41 PM   #5
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: [Basic] Trained by a Non-Combat Master

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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
I guess there are already rules in place for performing non-combat tasks quicker, it makes sense that Non-Combat versions of TBaM would halve the penalties for those tasks.
There are such rules, in 4E (they weren't in 3E), but the effect of halving those penalties is hugely valuable, even on just for a single non-combat skill category. I would not recommend the OP, or anyone else, implement such TbaM variants, without first consulting with several GURPS experts, and looking through important volumes such as GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 2 and GURPS Action 2, and noting down all the usage cases where such a halving of a task speed penalty would be very or extremely attractive.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: [Basic] Trained by a Non-Combat Master

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
There are such rules, in 4E (they weren't in 3E), but the effect of halving those penalties is hugely valuable, even on just for a single non-combat skill category. I would not recommend the OP, or anyone else, implement such TbaM variants, without first consulting with several GURPS experts, and looking through important volumes such as GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 2 and GURPS Action 2, and noting down all the usage cases where such a halving of a task speed penalty would be very or extremely attractive.
It compares to (at the absolute most) having +5 to skill. But this +5 is available if and only if the skill is used in minimal time. Also, quite importantly, it doesn't stack with Extra Time bonuses, and can't stack with bonuses from complimentary actions and/or skills unless those are also performed in minimal time. For a high-IQ character, Visualisation might be a better deal for skills that take more than a minute at the -9 mark.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:22 PM   #7
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: [Basic] Trained by a Non-Combat Master

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
It compares to (at the absolute most) having +5 to skill. But this +5 is available if and only if the skill is used in minimal time. Also, quite importantly, it doesn't stack with Extra Time bonuses, and can't stack with bonuses from complimentary actions and/or skills unless those are also performed in minimal time. For a high-IQ character, Visualisation might be a better deal for skills that take more than a minute at the -9 mark.
Good analysis! But keep in mind, it's for a category of skills, not just one skill. I can see any thief, spy or rogue finding this very valuable, especially with the -10 "instant action" rule where the penalty is reduced to -5.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: [Basic] Trained by a Non-Combat Master

Rather than creating a TBAM equivalent (although see Chinese Elemental Powers for a TBAM variant that applies to non-combat skills), I'd just allow some already existing trait to raise the cap.
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Old 08-21-2014, 02:11 PM   #9
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: [Basic] Trained by a Non-Combat Master

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Rather than creating a TBAM equivalent (although see Chinese Elemental Powers for a TBAM variant that applies to non-combat skills), I'd just allow some already existing trait to raise the cap.
But what learnable traits would that be?
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Old 08-21-2014, 02:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: [Basic] Trained by a Non-Combat Master

The "things work more quickly" approach seems most portable. For suitably well-defined tasks, the number of skills would probably be no greater than that for a 5 points/level Talent. Halving haste penalties would give at most a de facto +5, worth 25 points by this metric . . . and I'd toss on Aspected, -20% if there was no net bonus, for 20 points. I still think that's a poor buy, so I'd beef it up some: If the task is uncontested and margin of success matters, add 5 to margin of success on any success; if the task is contested and margin of victory matters, add 5 to margin of victory on any win.
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