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Old 06-23-2014, 04:02 PM   #11
dwalend
 
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

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Originally Posted by KevinR View Post
One problem may be 5.11.2 -- that deals with fire on "vehicle + infantry" combinations by noting that the result is applied to "all the infantry" mounted on the vehicle. There is also some absurdity that arises from 7.11 and 7.12.1 with cross-vehicle grouping.
That's quite a knot. I generally interpret ambiguity to favor Infantry and soften spillover, maybe for too long. Consider that a spillover D will kill lone infantry. If you don't let the infantry form a group, think about just how deadly that spillover fire will be.

I've always read it as targeting the vehicle delivers the same die roll to the infantry mounted on the vehicle -- regardless of how they are grouped. So a strength 2 attack on the LT at 1:1 delivers a 2:1 to the riding infantry (with the same die roll) and delivers spillover to the rest of the infantry group. For example, the 6 result would X the LT and that one Inf but the rest of the group would get spill over (at D2, although that's my reading again).

When a superheavy or GEV-PC gets zapped, the INF can form a D2 or D3 group for that attack. (The old rules said you could regroup whenever. This adds a wrinkle for the newest rule.)

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More absurdly, if this is 3 INF squads on 2 trucks (and say A2 against the 2-INF truck), this would result in the heavily-armored passengers of one truck being killed while the truck continues on merrily.
I'm less bothered by that. A mission kill on INF (drones, ducted fans, weapons, ammo, suits, and soldiers) is different from a mission kill on a truck (engine block, drive train, crazy driver). What stops one may leave the other unharmed.

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There also is some potential oddity from spillover fire (7.12). There should be spillover fire on all the other vehicles in the hex, which (per 5.11.2) should result in identical-roll spillover fire on all the infantry mounted on those other vehicles. This would seem to imply that a cross-vehicle INF group should be subject both to direct fire (at the target vehicle+INF) and spillover fire (at the other vehicle+INF) from the same shot.
Ah. I read "the vehicle + infantry combination is fired on" from 5.11.2 as untrue for spillover -- you didn't fire on it -- so 7.12 just spills onto the grouped infantry.
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Old 06-24-2014, 08:12 AM   #12
Talorien
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

The most illuminating conversation I've had about this with Steve is that, thematically, grouping literally represents "these guys are together over here, and those guys are together over there" in the 1.5-km wide area.

So the FAQ pretty much just clarifies what I think has been Steve's intent all along:

- All the guys on a certain vehicle are one group (they don't have a choice - this is made clear by the fact that they all share the same die roll as the vehicle).

- All the guys on vehicle A are not a group with all the guys on vehicle B (because the infantry have no control over where vehicles A and B are in the hex. They could literally be at opposite ends).

- All the guys on a vehicle are not grouped with other guys not on any vehicle, for the same reason as above (i.e. they are highly unlikely to be at the same spot during incoming fire)

Put another way: guys forming a group represents infantry tactically working together, hence the ECM overlap. Being mounted instantly nullifies that tactical option (except that everyone mounted together gets the ECM overlap anyway, just from proximity).

I know there's the potential objection "groundpounders and tanks have always worked together! So the infantry not on a vehicle could be next to the infantry on them!".

I think that this is where we say, that, at this scale, the commander has lost the overall option to do that (i.e. to get that granularity, the rules would have to track how fast the vehicle is moving each turn. By forgoing that level of bookkeeping, we also forgo the tanks-at-infantry-pace defensive grouping option).

------------

The clarification, to my mind, makes a lot of sense:

- Thematically, it works (see above)

- Gameplay-wise, it is simple and clear to resolve (it avoids the kinds of rules tangles involving 5.11.3 which Kevin has brought up)

TLDR: I'm pretty sure that Steve never intended infantry not on the same vehicle to be able to group defensively
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:12 AM   #13
dwalend
 
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

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Originally Posted by Talorien View Post
The most illuminating conversation I've had about this with Steve is that, thematically, grouping literally represents "these guys are together over here, and those guys are together over there" in the 1.5-km wide area.

...

- Gameplay-wise, it is simple and clear to resolve (it avoids the kinds of rules tangles involving 5.11.3 which Kevin has brought up)

TLDR: I'm pretty sure that Steve never intended infantry not on the same vehicle to be able to group defensively
Then we're probably good with the rule-change plus a sentence somewhere that infantry riding a vehicle use the same die even for spill-over.

Poor infantry. Dead men on leave.
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Old 06-24-2014, 07:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

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Then we're probably good with the rule-change plus a sentence somewhere that infantry riding a vehicle use the same die even for spill-over.

Poor infantry. Dead men on leave.
And, traditionally, why you don't put infantry on top of vehicles in combat. To me, this has been one of those "charging uphill against entrenched defenders" sorts of situations.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:46 AM   #15
Talorien
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

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Then we're probably good with the rule-change plus a sentence somewhere that infantry riding a vehicle use the same die even for spill-over.
I don't think 5.11.2 applies to spillover. The operative words are "fired upon", which I think means the same thing as "declared one of the counters to be the target of the attack" in 7.12. In other words, 5.11.2 allows more than one counter (the vehicle and its riders) to be the "target of the attack" given in 7.12.

This is probably worth an FAQ entry to 5.11.2.
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Old 06-25-2014, 10:34 AM   #16
dwalend
 
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

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I don't think 5.11.2 applies to spillover. The operative words are "fired upon", which I think means the same thing as "declared one of the counters to be the target of the attack" in 7.12. In other words, 5.11.2 allows more than one counter (the vehicle and its riders) to be the "target of the attack" given in 7.12.

This is probably worth an FAQ entry to 5.11.2.
That matches my reading, but doesn't fit the reasoning above. Also, saving some die rolls in a big spill-over will speed up the game.
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Old 06-25-2014, 01:21 PM   #17
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

Can the grouping text apply to groups of vehicles also for towing or open topped vehicle transports? (Which trains ought to be anyway.)
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Old 06-25-2014, 07:43 PM   #18
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

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Can the grouping text apply to groups of vehicles also for towing or open topped vehicle transports? (Which trains ought to be anyway.)
For physically connected vehicles, I could see an argument for the mounted damage rule (5.11.?) -- apply one die roll to both the tow-er and the tow-ee.

I don't think there are towing rules in 6e yet, and I can't remember what happens with vehicles (or infantry) on trains.
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Old 06-26-2014, 10:09 AM   #19
Talorien
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

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That matches my reading, but doesn't fit the reasoning above. Also, saving some die rolls in a big spill-over will speed up the game.
To be specific, the new FAQ for 7.12.1 applies (i.e. how infantry are grouped), but 5.11.2 doesn't apply.

Basically, spillover is random enough that it can affect a vehicle and its riders differently, whereas the area of effect for direct fire is large enough that it affects a vehicle and its riders in equal intensity (though not in equal effect, due to possible different defense values).
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Old 10-05-2014, 05:21 PM   #20
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

What happens if an Ogre overruns a disabled LGEV and the defending unit fires on treads?
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