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Old 02-26-2017, 01:42 PM   #1
GranitePenguin
 
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Default The "right" value for a SHVY?

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Originally Posted by wolf90 View Post
Anyone have any additional errata, rules clarifications or FAQs that should be included but have yet to be posted?
How about fixing the value of a SHVY?
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Old 02-26-2017, 09:27 PM   #2
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

I've moved this to a new thread as this is likely to be a lengthy discussion.

And for those new to the forums (or those looking for a refresher), you might peruse this thread for additional discussion on this topic.

D.
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Old 02-26-2017, 09:55 PM   #3
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

I just read that thread last night.

It left me inclined to stick with D5, pending some actual play.

I mean I've never had an edition of Ogre that included SHVYs that didn't have D5. The y2k version had it.
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Old 02-26-2017, 10:13 PM   #4
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

The stats for it are not changing. It is:

Attack 3 & 3
Range 3
Two AP guns
Move 3 as Ogre
Defense 5
Size 5

What has generated debate is the VP cost. Currently it costs 12 VP (or 2 armor units). There is an argument that it should cost more.

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Old 02-26-2017, 10:14 PM   #5
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

Ahhh, okay.
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Old 02-26-2017, 10:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

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Originally Posted by Belle Sorciere View Post
I just read that thread last night.

It left me inclined to stick with D5, pending some actual play.

I mean I've never had an edition of Ogre that included SHVYs that didn't have D5. The y2k version had it.
The original SHVY was from Shockwave (1984). It was a more straightforward unit: (3/3)/3 D4 M3, no AP guns that cost 2 AU. The crux of the issue is it gained a D5, AP guns, and the potential for partial damage, but still costs only 2 AU. It is significantly overpowered for its cost, causing a lot of imbalance in G.E.V. games especially to the point that you are a fool if you _don't_ use them.

I don't have a problem keeping the stats as-is (especially with everything that's already printed; counters, etc), just make the cost for it appropriate. My gut feeling is 3 AU.
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Old 02-26-2017, 10:44 PM   #7
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
...[The SHVY] is significantly overpowered for its cost, causing a lot of imbalance in G.E.V. games especially to the point that you are a fool if you _don't_ use them. ... My gut feeling is 3 AU.
I think the lowest value to consider is about 2.5 AU. You'd be a fool not to use them frequently at this price, but your HVYs will get some time on the board. Choose between 5 HVYs with 20 attack factors vs 2 SHVYs with 12 attack factors, better range, and slightly better mobility.

3 AU will put SHVYs in a specialist role, but they'll still come out of the box for force concentration tactics, especially vs INF. I think that's the right value for MSLs to get some play. Choose 9 attack factors with limited mobility vs 6 with great mobility.

The one failing of the SHVY is when fighting an ogre, trying to saturate enemy weapons with a large number of targets. They're the wrong tank for the job at 2 AU. (LTs are a great choice, plus the SB vs LT match up costs the ogre a third of its firepower.)
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Old 02-26-2017, 11:01 PM   #8
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

Playing around with the Cobb calculator, where costs are calculated in victory points as well as armor units, a superheavy without AP guns costs 12.56 VP, rounded down to 2 AU. Add the antipersonnel, and cost increases to 14.23 VP, which rounds up to 2.5 AU. So I'm fine with either of these values when playing a scenario from the book.

I never use the tread damage for superheavies, so I'll trust the conventional wisdom that tread damage brings it up to 3 AU.
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Old 02-26-2017, 11:55 PM   #9
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

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Originally Posted by Desert Scribe View Post
Playing around with the Cobb calculator, where costs are calculated in victory points as well as armor units, a superheavy without AP guns costs 12.56 VP, rounded down to 2 AU. Add the antipersonnel, and cost increases to 14.23 VP, which rounds up to 2.5 AU. So I'm fine with either of these values when playing a scenario from the book.

I never use the tread damage for superheavies, so I'll trust the conventional wisdom that tread damage brings it up to 3 AU.
Maybe the (house) rule should be that it's 2 AU if one doesn't use the record sheet and 3 AU if one does.
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Old 02-27-2017, 08:09 AM   #10
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Default Re: The "right" value for a SHVY?

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Maybe the (house) rule should be that it's 2 AU if one doesn't use the record sheet and 3 AU if one does.
Which is exactly how we've been playing it in ODE, with none the wiser that there's been a controversy over it.

All of our skirmishes, which have involved the SHVY, have shown it to be balanced well at 2AU, but admittedly nobody has wanted to use the 3AU/Partial rules.

At that point, we'd felt that a MKI would be a better choice at 4AU, or a SHVY+HVY combo if 3AU is all you had left to spend.
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