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Old 05-19-2014, 07:20 AM   #41
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
There is no explicitness about it. Two skills with the same difficulty levels do not cost differently based on the defaults they grant. Full stop. The difficulty levels are too coarse and too not utility costed to argue that they are changed by the defaults available either.
They don't cost differently, but you get more benefits for the same point cost.
I think you see this as a flaw, but I see it as recognition of a fact that certain weapon are similar enough to each other bit in form and use that experience in using one helps when using another.

Defaults (of what ever degree and how ever many types) are a fundamental part of a skill, and relevant part of defining them.

A broad sword may be as easy to learn as a Lance (DX/Average) but leaning a broad sword gives you grounding it wider range of weapons and techniques than learning the lance. (and IIRC you can use lance defaulting from Spear but not the other way round).
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Old 05-19-2014, 07:58 AM   #42
Not another shrubbery
 
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Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

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Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
Also, even untrained I believe that you can use the techniques, but you can't raise them from default unless you are trained in the skill.
In most cases this will be double defaulting, which should disallow it. I can't recall if that's ever been actually stated, though.
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:03 PM   #43
Otaku
 
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Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
In most cases this will be double defaulting, which should disallow it. I can't recall if that's ever been actually stated, though.
Okay, taking a risk here because I technically don't know what I am talking about but that would be a change to 4e.

In 3e, as per 3e p. MA42, Techniques* are one of the special exceptions to the rules against double defaults. This makes a lot of sense when you remember how GURPS defines "Skills" and "Techniques", and that something like Feint is a Technique. If one doesn't allow double defaults you can't Feint with a weapon for which you have no official training!

Techniques are specialized uses of a Skill that either actually are or at least are plausible to "train up" separately from the rest of the Skill. The default level of a Technique shows how well it can be performed with just the general body of knowledge supplied with the Skill... so unless the Technique is something that the person using the Skill at default shouldn't know exists (that is entirely up to specifics, not generalities), they should indeed be able to "double default" it.

*referred to as Maneuvers in the text, per the 3e rules
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Old 05-19-2014, 02:55 PM   #44
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

Correction: I checked again and my previous statement that you can use techniques without points in a skill is in error. RAW while some techniques offer buying up penalties that can be attempted without the technique and techniques are allowed to double default from other techniques you need at least one point to gain access to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
They don't cost differently, but you get more benefits for the same point cost.
I think you see this as a flaw, but I see it as recognition of a fact that certain weapon are similar enough to each other bit in form and use that experience in using one helps when using another.

Defaults (of what ever degree and how ever many types) are a fundamental part of a skill, and relevant part of defining them.

A broad sword may be as easy to learn as a Lance (DX/Average) but leaning a broad sword gives you grounding it wider range of weapons and techniques than learning the lance. (and IIRC you can use lance defaulting from Spear but not the other way round).
Uh getting more benefits for the same cost is in fact a flaw but it is unrelated to what we've been talking about.

I said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
Skills are blatantly not utility costed and there isn't any cost difference based on what and at what penalty of defaults a skill gets.
And in response you said

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Maybe not explicitly, but the reality of it is you pay the 67 pts for a skill of 24 in Broadsword, then you get some pretty respectable score is lots of combat skills.

The whole concept of defaults in general points to the idea that certain skills share fundamentals, and the the fact that some skills default more widely points to the idea that some fundamentals are widely shared. What a skill defaults to and by how much is an aspect of the skill just as its difficulty is.
Which is to say that skills are implicitly either utility costed or there is a cost difference based on what and at what penalty of defaults a skill gets. There isn't an official adjustment of cost to reflect defaults. It is possible that it is folded in among other factors to figure out skill difficulty (which kinda sorta corresponds with cost) but it seems unlikely to any significant degree when you start going through the skills. That skills aren't utility costed is well known and obvious.

So what were you even trying to say? You have abandoned there being a cost difference and you aren't trying to defend skill utility costing.
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Old 05-20-2014, 12:44 AM   #45
DCB
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
Correction: I checked again and my previous statement that you can use techniques without points in a skill is in error. RAW while some techniques offer buying up penalties that can be attempted without the technique and techniques are allowed to double default from other techniques you need at least one point to gain access to them.
I'm fairly confident that's incorrect, for two reasons:

1) The descriptions of Techniques (B.229) and Prerequisites (B.169) indicate that techniques cannot be improved unless you have at least one point in the skill. Not only does that not say techniques cannot be used, it implies they can be, as it would be redundant to say you can't improve something you can't even use.

2) "[A technique] is a specific action covered by the parent skill, studied on its own." (B.229, para 2) In other words, unimproved techniques are simply applications of the base skill, and often very central ones (e.g., Feint).
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Old 05-20-2014, 02:20 AM   #46
Sindri
 
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Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

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Originally Posted by DCB View Post
I'm fairly confident that's incorrect, for two reasons:

1) The descriptions of Techniques (B.229) and Prerequisites (B.169) indicate that techniques cannot be improved unless you have at least one point in the skill. Not only does that not say techniques cannot be used, it implies they can be, as it would be redundant to say you can't improve something you can't even use.

2) "[A technique] is a specific action covered by the parent skill, studied on its own." (B.229, para 2) In other words, unimproved techniques are simply applications of the base skill, and often very central ones (e.g., Feint).
Basic describes techniques as defaults of skills (B229) and takes the time to mention that you are allowed to double default from techniques (B232) but does not exempt techniques from the normal double default rules.

Basic says "If you have even one point in a skill, you may use all that skill's techniques at default." (B230)

Kromm weighs in with posts such as http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...64&postcount=6

As I mentioned before certain applications of a skill (for example kicking) are available as options as well as techniques which can be improved.
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Old 05-20-2014, 03:33 AM   #47
DCB
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
Basic describes techniques as defaults of skills (B229) and takes the time to mention that you are allowed to double default from techniques (B232) but does not exempt techniques from the normal double default rules.
"A skill can not default to another skill known only by default....However, techniques are not skills." (B.232, Double Defaults and Techniques)

Since techniques are not skills, the rule against double defaults for skills does not apply.


Quote:
Kromm weighs in with posts such as http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...64&postcount=6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Remember what "prerequisite" means. Nearly all techniques have the skill to which they default as a prerequisite. If you lack that skill, then you lack the prerequisite and cannot attempt the technique; for instance, if you lack even 1 point in Broadsword, then you cannot try any technique that defaults to Broadsword, even at default, because you lack the prerequisite.
My copy of GURPS Basic Set does not define "prerequisite" in that manner. Per the index, the only restrictions listed are:
1) "To study the advanced skill, you must have at least one point in the prerequisite skill." (B.169)
2) "you must have at least one point in a skill before you can improve its techniques." (B.229)

The above quote suggests that "prerequisite" means the skill cannot be used at all, even at default, if the prereq skill is only known at default. However, B.173 indicates that any skill with a default "is something that everybody can do...a little bit" with "no training", and skills that cannot be used at all without training have no defaults.

With that approach, a hypothetical IQ 20 omni-knowledgeable super-genius would have defaults that made him an expert in every law, every science, every music...but could not even attempt the simplest engineering feat, due to lacking the Math(Applied) prereq, despite being able to function as a Math(Applied) expert! That creates two very different classes of skills, and removes a tool for allowing GURPS to elegantly model certain archetypes (e.g., Doc Savage) for no apparent benefit.

However, Kromm claims that his forum posts override the published books, and enough people here agree that there's little point continuing a discussion when it devolves into a game of "find the Kromm quote", so I'm done.
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Old 05-20-2014, 04:19 AM   #48
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

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Originally Posted by DCB View Post
"A skill can not default to another skill known only by default....However, techniques are not skills." (B.232, Double Defaults and Techniques)

Since techniques are not skills, the rule against double defaults for skills does not apply.
It is not sufficient to end the quote there. The full section is

Quote:
A skill cannot default to another skill know only by default (see Double Defaults, p. 173). However, techniques are not skills. If two techniques are based on the same underlying skill, one can default to the other, even if you only know the intermediate techniques at default.
It says that techniques are not skills. Accordingly they can have different rules for double defaults. However it does not say that the double default rules do not apply only that a specific situation of defaulting a technique from a technique does not fall under them.

Also it is my second point that is most significant. Techniques are weirdly written and constantly assume that you will be buying them up rather than presenting the technique things and then presenting the rules for buying them up but while "you may use" is not perfectly clear absent any specific statement of being able to use techniques specifically and not options which also exist as techniques it is reasonable to interpret it as ruling out untrained use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCB View Post
However, Kromm claims that his forum posts override the published books, and enough people here agree that there's little point continuing a discussion when it devolves into a game of "find the Kromm quote", so I'm done.
Well it's up to you but I don't think that's necessary. I supplied the quote among other things because I'm willing to discuss it in terms of written rules as well as forum clarifications.

Last edited by Sindri; 05-20-2014 at 04:23 AM.
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Old 05-20-2014, 04:24 AM   #49
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
So what were you even trying to say? You have abandoned there being a cost difference and you aren't trying to defend skill utility costing.
That skill that have lots of defaults are recognised to be more similar to those skill they cross default to than skills that have fewer defaults. And that the default system is an important part of the deciding the utility of the a skill.

Basically the system recognised that if you good with broadswords you also be pretty good with a wider range of other weapons that if you good with lance.

This has the effect of mitigating having so many weapons skills to spend points in, because the effect is points spent in broadswords is also points spent on several other skills as well.
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Old 05-20-2014, 04:30 AM   #50
Sindri
 
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Default Re: Capping Skill Default Levels

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
That skill that have lots of defaults are recognised to be more similar to those skill they cross default to than skills that have fewer defaults. And that the default system is an important part of the deciding the utility of the a skill.

Basically the system recognised that if you good with broadswords you also be pretty good with a wider range of other weapons that if you good with lance.

This has the effect of mitigating having so many weapons skills to spend points in, because the effect is points spent in broadswords is also points spent on several other skills as well.
Skills are not utility costed. This is known and can be trivially figured out after examination of the skill list unless your perception of the usefulness of skills in campaigns on average is very unusual.
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